LWMO Wedding | Imamother

amother

Periwinkle

Mon, Feb 10 2020, 10:37 am

The only things that I would have a hard time with and be uncomfortable about, as a yeshivish person, is the public kiss and mixed dancing. Nothing else would really faze me. I’m sure a lot of the yeshivish guests Would feel the same as me. Dairy, seating, music who reads kesubah.... might seem odd /unusual but not more than that.

Ps. The husband walking the kallah to the chupah is a Real Minhag. For some reason yeshivish chasanim just shuffle forward three steps, but sefardim do it all the way - Meet the parents midway and take her the rest - which I think is beautiful. I think the symbolism is He’s bringing her into his home. (if I was getting married now, I’d totally push for this! )

amother

Mon, Feb 10 2020, 10:49 am

amother [ Periwinkle ] wrote:

I'm pretty much on the same page with all of this. Not sure about the music, but whatever. Not my problem. I'm generally not as into the whole "that's how it's done" thing than my mother, which is why I can be helpful in this. But then again, nobody thinks that I am making this wedding, it doesn't reflect on me in any way... But I am slowly working on my mother.

And yes, I love the chasan coming out Smile

Ellie7

Mon, Feb 10 2020, 11:27 am

Quote:

As far as the prenup goes: my father and DH do not have a say. That's not what I wrote. They both are extremely learned and from their halachic understanding, the prenup is extremely flawed. I think the argument is something like, "The prenup states that if the husband refuses to give a get, the kiddushin was never valid. But you cannot have that condition because it establishes a conditional kiddushin, which is not a kiddushin".

I know you were just taking a stab at this argument, but, for the record, that’s not at all how the halachic prenup works. It works by imposing financial sanctions on the party refusing the get—and since the ketubah specifically sets up financial responsibilities, it’s in line with that. It does NOT invalidate the Kiddushin, but the financial sanctions are enforceable in US courts, which makes it much easier to see results.

amother

Mon, Feb 10 2020, 11:34 am

Ellie7 wrote:

Quote:

Right. From the researhc I have done this morning, my impression is that one of the issues was that the original prenup set a specific daily amount of money. Not sure the exact problem, but apparently part of the fix was to NOT specify an amount, but to have it decided at the time of the divorce (or lack thereof), proportionate to the couple's financial situation at that time. I did see something saying that Rav Elyashiv zatz"l stipulated that it should be signed a couple days before the wedding, not at the time of the chuppah.

samantha87

Mon, Feb 10 2020, 11:45 am

Just want to add that your sister's and BIL's mesader kedushin will have a say in what non-standard things he allows under the chupah. And if your sister and BIL respect him, his opinion may sway them on things they are not so firm on. For example, my mesader kedushin helped keep the peace around who said the brachos. He convinced my family that a non-O rabbi was fine, and he set the tone with my inlaws that a woman would not be fine. If mixed dancing is a question, a respected mesader kedushin can convince the couple not to.

Of course if your sister wants to be married by a Maharat, all bets are off!

amother

Magenta

Tue, Feb 11 2020, 7:55 am

Sounds like you are working really hard to create shalom in this situation however I wonder why you need to do this? You will be making things very hard for yourself, ie having both sides upset at you some of the time, you feeling so responsible for all of this is not really fair or right to yourself imo.

Yes, it's a hard situation for your family but I would ask a shaila before jumping in to be the peacemaker. There is no halacha against walking a pet down the aisle, however absurd that is. Mixed dancing is another story but that is your shaila and your parents' shaila to ask.

You might be making the situation worse by getting involved and bringing a lot of stress upon yourself.
I know how you feel b/c I sometimes feel like I need to control situations but seriously you have to learn to let go and relax. Sometimes when one of the parties lets go, then the other ppl in the relationship become healthier b/c they are forced to confront their issues.

Your parents will deal with it how they will deal with it, so will your sister and if you would continue on this route of wanting to help, I would ask a knowledgeable Rav who understands family dynamics whether it is the healthy thing for you to be taking this role on. It could be that you are mechuyav to help but you have to set boundaries for yourself and not let it affect you and your family in a negative way.

SixOfWands

Tue, Feb 11 2020, 11:46 am

Rappel wrote:

As a courtesy. But this is less about the imma.

This is about the bride. She wants a wedding which is very unusual for her family, and which they would even find insulting or disgusting in some ways. She can't do that on their dime.

She has the option of paying for her own - and if she wants all these things which are important to her, then she should. But if she wants Imma and Abba to foot the bill for her celebration, then she needs to respect their wishes. Anything else is honestly rude, and will strain her relationship with her parents.

On the flip side, parents demanding that the wedding be a certain way is a sure way to strain a relationship. Particularly as there is little of halachic significance being discussed. Its HER wedding, not the parents. And "do it our way or we won't pay" may result in a wedding the parents like, but a long-term relationship that will make them anything but happy.

Sure, its a little weird to have Yertle the Turtle march down the aisle (or Barry the Boa slithering on down), but nothing wrong with it halachically. There may be venue restrictons, OTOH.

The Torah doesn't demand meat or waiter service. Or even that a reception be indoors.

AFAIK, nothing wrong with a woman reading the ketubah.

And we all know that weddings were usually mixed seating until relatively recently. They can reserve single gender tables for people who prefer that, and let everyone else sit together.

So that leaves dancing. Most LWMO weddings I've been to have single-gender Jewish dancing until around dessert time. Then people who don't want to participate in mixed dancing leave.

Mazel tov to the bride.

amother

Tue, May 19 2020, 9:00 pm

Soooo. I'm back. And the issues that we thought would be a big deal turned out to be pretty irrelevant now LOL

But now the issue is "when should the wedding be held?"

They are discussing two dates, one mid June, the other early July.
My mom thinks if it's the later date, it can be more of a "real wedding" - ie, not just 10 people, maybe even a couple of her siblings and a friend or two of the chatan and kallah. She's in denial about my grandmother being able to come, though everyone else is telling her she's out of her mind.
My sister just wants to get married already. And she doesn't think it will make a difference - and even if it does, she wonders why this is about my parents "making a wedding" and not about the couple getting married. I pointed out that this is exactly what IS important - having the people we love there, as opposed to all the trappings that were originally an issue.

My poor mom has accepted that this will not be anything even remotely close to something she would have been comfortable with. She just wants to have a few people she loves there with us.
My poor sister is losing out on so much of the wedding she hoped for.

And we don't have any way of knowing what the rules will be like for either date. My assumption is that for the June date, if we want to have even just the immediate family, the Mesader Kiddushin and a second eid, it will have to be in a backyard. That leaves all the logistics on the family, which is a lot even on a scaled-down level, and that makes it feel like a glorified bat mitzvah.

I don't even know what I'm asking - at this point I don't think there even IS a right answer! I personally think my sister is being a little short-sighted, that she is young and in love and in a rush, and two weeks is nothing in the scheme of things, especially if it means uncles or aunts can be there. But maybe it won't make a difference anyway!

Any thoughts?
Also, any ideas of how to make a corona wedding more beautiful?

imasinger

Tue, May 19 2020, 9:40 pm

Hi, OP, you're not alone in trying to figure this out! Maybe start a new thread about making weddings now, and ask for ideas and thoughts?

If I were your mom, I'd go with the kallah's wishes here. While it's lovely for family to celebrate together, it's not fair to ask her to push off her life until that's possible, especially when nobody can say when that would be. A "glorified bat mitzvah"? Nah. A wedding during a unique time in the world. What makes any event special is how we frame it.

If there were any guarantees those few weeks would change things, it would be one thing. But there are so many unknowns.

And with the issue of the grandmother who would want so badly to come, it's easier to say no if there are more restrictions.

Why can't she get married in a small ceremony, then have the big celebration once it's possible to do so?

There can also be other creative ways to involve the family from a distance.

I have a friend whose DD is getting married soon, that is soliciting family and friends to send video clips of their good wishes.

Whatever is decided, a big mazel tov to your family.

DrMom

Wed, May 20 2020, 4:41 am

Neither the bride nor the mother are going to get what they envisioned a few months ago, because now -- deux ex machina -- compromise was forced on them externally without either one having to compromise with the other.

Just go with what the kallah wants and let the couple get married. She can't do anything too crazy or embarrassing with all the restrictions in place (this is in the US, right?), and there will already be many deviations from the norm due to the covid-19 situation, so the mother won't get her cookie-cutter wedding anyway.

etky

Wed, May 20 2020, 5:33 am

DrMom wrote:

Yup, manna from heaven. Just go with it..

amother

Wed, May 20 2020, 7:42 am

I don’t think I’m explaining myself well here.
The cookie cutter wedding is irrelevant. This is really now about “if we wait three weeks, my mother can maybe have her brother there.”
Nobody except my mother has any stupid ideas about my grandmother coming (I hope that includes my grandmother but I haven’t heard about that discussion) - we all know she can’t come, and my mother will realize soon enough.
Is it really so self-centered of my mother to want to have her sibling there? This isn’t about the LWMO thing at all at this point. I’m kind of wondering at what point does “it’s the bride’s day” go completely off the rails of decency into complete selfishness on the part of the bride? In any other circumstance, if I heard that holding the wedding three weeks later would mean the bride’s mother could have her siblings there, AND the only reason not to do it then is “we don’t want to wait longer”, I would not be very impressed with the bride. I think it’s salient to add here that the later date was the original date chosen before the world went crazy. Then they talked about moving it up, but those reasons aren’t relevant anymore, so now it’s “go back to the original date” or “have it three weeks earlier” - a third date, mind you. DH thinks they are just ridiculous at this point, they’ve gone back and forth with so many dates and it’s really soon - and driving everyone else crazy.

[I do think that there’s a point (not this situation) where “it’s the bride’s day” comes closer to Bridezilla. I guess philosophically, it sounds antithetical to Jewish (not right wing or yeshivish) values. Because in Judaism it’s not just about you. Almost ever. So where does that line get drawn? In brackets because this is intellectual curiosity, not related to the discussion about my sister]

imasinger

Wed, May 20 2020, 8:15 am

OK. Let's see if this is right.

1. Back before the virus, a nice wedding was planned, on Date #1, in July.

2. When the virus and shutdown hit, there was talk of doing a very small wedding on Date #2, which has now passed?

3. Kallah now is wanting to have the wedding on Date #3, which is just a few weeks earlier than Date #1.

The difference between Date #3 and Date #1 in terms of attendance is that your uncle (and other family) might be able to come.

You and DH think that your sister should just go with Date #1. Your mother wants Date #1. Your sister wants Date #3.

You know that your sister isn't by any means being a Bridezilla, but you still feel like she's being selfish in not agreeing to Date #1. Is she calling your mother and you selfish for not being supportive of Date #3?

My 2 cents. Nobody is being selfish here. These aren't other circumstances, this is now. There are compelling reasons on both sides of this, and weddings are stressful enough without lockdowns being thrown into the mix. Your sister is totally within reason to say she doesn't want to wait longer, and your mother is within reason to want to wait if it means having family there. (But not her mother, please.)

So, if you happen to side with your mom, you can say so -- without drama or critique, and with respect that this is a very difficult time for all concerned, and you sympathize with everyone.

Then, bow out and don't let your mother or sister triangulate you in this.

amother

Burgundy

Wed, May 20 2020, 10:41 am

Realize that they are probably keeping halachos of taharas hamishpacha. By making them wait longer yo are making it harder for them.
Another side is that they are not keeping the laws and by pushing it off you are giving them more times to be together not according to halacha.
I do not see how your parents would even want them to push it off 3 more weeks.