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The concept of "privilege"
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amother
OP


 

Post Tue, Feb 11 2020, 11:16 am
I wanted to get some ideas on the following concept.

This began at work, with statements frequently made by one of my coworkers. We all work in a department in which everybody by necessity shares the same degree and licensing, ie, the same credentials. She is in her late twenties, African American, and frequently talks about white privilege.

Obviously I understand the concept of historical discriminatory treatment of various ethnic groups and the toll it took on their ability to move forward, and I understand as well that there are forces at play today as well which affect people based on ethnicity, gender, national origin, etc.

But my question is this. There are so many other invisible forces at play, which confer privilege, that nobody speaks about. And I suppose the reason I am reacting to this particular woman is as follows: She is tall, slim, very attractive. She is also bright, well-spoken, and has many other positive traits. But so do the majority of the other individuals in the department.

Perhaps because of her youth, and the fact that she grew up very pretty, she doesn't recognize that this quality confers major benefits. But it absolutely does. She, and others in a similar category, are listened to, acknowledged by the supervisory staff, liked and accepted, in ways that the older, frumpier among us are not.

I am not talking about being mistreated, or z-xualized. That is something different entirely. It is hardly new information that physical qualities such as objective attractiveness, height, body size, etc. confer privilege in society, such as getting jobs, being promoted, etc.

It just got me thinking. It's hard to hear her go on about this, when she is oblivious to her own "unearned" privilege. Just wanted some opinions. And to clarify, I'm not trying to debate the existence of undue racial/ethnic privilege. I'm mulling over the fact that there are many other sources of privilege as well, that this coworker in particular, is benefiting from, that are not acknowleged.

[Mod note - please keep this thread clear of politics. If you want to bring anything political into it, start a spin off in the politics forum]
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Rappel




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 11 2020, 11:35 am
You've hit the nail on the head.

Example: I have "religious woman's privilege" - if I'm standing at a hitchhiking station, I'm likely to get a ride fairly quickly. If I'm walking through a security check, they wave me right through. If I'm carrying something heavy, I'm 90% certain to receive an offer of help.

However, I lack "man's privilege" - the ability to chill out and be accepted in a random group of guys, to be called on to fix mechanical/electrical things, and to be taken seriously at an auto-repair shop.

So should I spent my life decrying all the features I lack? Or should I appreciate what I have, and use it to my advantage?


Last edited by Rappel on Tue, Feb 11 2020, 11:48 am; edited 1 time in total
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amother
Yellow


 

Post Tue, Feb 11 2020, 11:36 am
I genuinely believe white privilege is a unicorn. Something made up specifically for political gain.

Yes, there are certain unpleasant realities that some experience due to race that others don't have to ever worry about. There is no denying that. But like you say, we all have things that tie us back and we all have things that propel us. The idea that being white makes your life instantly easy and better and being black makes your life instantly difficult and worse is just not believable. In 1950, okay. In 2020? No.
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Rappel




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 11 2020, 11:37 am
Another aspect which bothers me: any discussion of "privilege" almost automatically includes degrading another group for features they can't help. Anyone who needs to bring themselves up by dragging others down is struggling with much deeper issues than "privilege."
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avrahamama




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 11 2020, 11:42 am
There's skinny privilege, tall people privilege, right handed privilege. Even among the black community there is light skin privilege.

The thing is some privilege is stronger and influences a person's life more than others. Wealth speaks louder than character in some circles. Looks louder than intelect in others.

So yes if you were getting pulled over by a cop you would be safer than your co-worker. And she might be a more popular employee because she is physically attractive. She might think that your whiteness got you to the same place easier and faster then her.

I would hope that once there the work ethic and other important factors are taken into consideration as opposed to skin color and concerns of privilege.
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Rappel




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 11 2020, 11:46 am
amother [ Yellow ] wrote:
I genuinely believe white privilege is a unicorn. Something made up specifically for political gain.

Yes, there are certain unpleasant realities that some experience due to race that others don't have to ever worry about. There is no denying that. But like you say, we all have things that tie us back and we all have things that propel us. The idea that being white makes your life instantly easy and better and being black makes your life instantly difficult and worse is just not believable. In 1950, okay. In 2020? No.


Race still an important social factor in 2020. A young black male is much more likely to be stopped and searched. He has to try harder to look classy, to break that visual stereotype which still exists in many Western countries. But that's just a factor of reality. I hope he does not sum himself up by the pigment of his skin, because he has so much more about him the is important.

Another example: DH is Hispanic, and could easily pass for Arab. When we started going out, his normal attire was practical/grungy, his hair was very short, and he was very well muscled at the time. He was probably stopped every 50 feet in Jerusalem, because he set off every policeman who was trying to spot young, dangerous Arabs. One day, he came to meet me while wearing a Shabbat shirt, and he wasn't stopped at all that evening. That day, he learned that he could dress above his looks in Israel, instead of always being targeted. (In NJ, where he grew up, it didn't matter if he was wearing a three-piece suit. He was stopped by the cops regardless.)


Last edited by Rappel on Tue, Feb 11 2020, 11:50 am; edited 1 time in total
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small bean




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 11 2020, 11:46 am
So really there are inherent privileges in this world. Being white is not one of them.

Growing up in a 2 parent home is a privilege. In the past percentage wise there were more black single mothers than white and therefore white people had what appeared to be a privilege. Today actually white people are just as likely as black people to grow up in a aingle family home.

The economic life you grow up in is a privilege. You dont get to choose your parents monetary level. Growing up in poverty is a disadvantage. Those growing up in financialy stable homes have a privilege.

IQ level is a privilege and you dont get to choose a high IQ. Asians have higher IQ in general. That is a privilege.

Having a social fabric is a privilege. Being part of a community or religion is a privilege. Blacks in general have this privilege.

Everyone born in america is privileged compared to those born in nigeria. Americans have a privlige that those in nigeria don't have.

There are many more such privileges that will enhance your life and create an easier map so to say.

That being said not having inherent privileges does not mean that you are doomed for failure. You and only you can make yourself a success.

There are many people who belong to groups who were discriminated against and had all the odds stacked against them that are extremely successful people.

When people talk about privlege it is a way of keeping them blameless for their lack of acheivement. It is an insecurity.

We all have some privileges and lack other privileges. That's the way life works. Life is not even steven. We need to not look at other peoples privilege or lack there of and feel better or inferior. We need to take the tools we are given and turn them into privilege. We need to work past our disadvantages.

If I worked with this person. I would ask her how my skin color brought me to the place she is. If skin color is the ultimate privilege, how'd we end up in the same place.

I know many on this board disagree with me. If we can stay civil and leave politics out we can maybe have an interesting discussion.
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amother
Maroon


 

Post Tue, Feb 11 2020, 11:56 am
small bean. I wouldn't ask her that because the obvious answer is that she had to work harder. Ironically when I was in graduate school it was clear that the minorities were accepted more easily in to the program- aka affirmative action.
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avrahamama




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 11 2020, 11:56 am
small bean wrote:
So really there are inherent privileges in this world. Being white is not one of them.

Growing up in a 2 parent home is a privilege. In the past percentage wise there were more black single mothers than white and therefore white people had what appeared to be a privilege. Today actually white people are just as likely as black people to grow up in a aingle family home.

The economic life you grow up in is a privilege. You dont get to choose your parents monetary level. Growing up in poverty is a disadvantage. Those growing up in financialy stable homes have a privilege.

IQ level is a privilege and you dont get to choose a high IQ. Asians have higher IQ in general. That is a privilege.

Having a social fabric is a privilege. Being part of a community or religion is a privilege. Blacks in general have this privilege.

Everyone born in america is privileged compared to those born in nigeria. Americans have a privlige that those in nigeria don't have.

There are many more such privileges that will enhance your life and create an easier map so to say.

That being said not having inherent privileges does not mean that you are doomed for failure. You and only you can make yourself a success.

There are many people who belong to groups who were discriminated against and had all the odds stacked against them that are extremely successful people.

When people talk about privlege it is a way of keeping them blameless for their lack of acheivement. It is an insecurity.

We all have some privileges and lack other privileges. That's the way life works. Life is not even steven. We need to not look at other peoples privilege or lack there of and feel better or inferior. We need to take the tools we are given and turn them into privilege. We need to work past our disadvantages.

If I worked with this person. I would ask her how my skin color brought me to the place she is. If skin color is the ultimate privilege, how'd we end up in the same place.

I know many on this board disagree with me. If we can stay civil and leave politics out we can maybe have an interesting discussion.


I wish I could genuinely feel the above. But I've heard many times in shiuri. That it's a Torah concept that the rich stay rich and poor stay poor. and for the most part I see that is the reality.

Also OP try not to engage with your coworkers about race and privilege. I feel like it's a bait. And it can get you in big trouble I don't see any good coming of it.

The concept of privilege is so ingrained that to deny it is considered racism. You don't want to go there...
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amother
Bisque


 

Post Tue, Feb 11 2020, 11:58 am
There's no question that privelege absolutely exists. And it's incredibly hard to push back against because if you're in the priveleged group, you have no idea what other people, outside that group, have to deal with, and so it's easy to say "well, I've never seen it, therefore it doesn't exist". The thing is, privelege exists in all categories, and everyone is priveleged in some ways and lack privelege in others. It's not just race and gender, though those are the most talked about. Weight, disability, economic status, marital status, religion--all these involve privelege too. It's just those most vocal about privelege tend to focus on race and gender and forget that it's so much more nuanced. Like sure, white privelege is a thing, but I think we can all agree that Chris Rock's children are going to have more opportunities open to them in life than the children of some white unemployed factory worker in the Rust Belt.

Understanding privelege is useful in terms of making the world a kinder place. However, some have turned it into a cudgel with which to beat people over the head as if you need to constantly apologize for your very existence if you're white or male or whatever. And that's wrong and completely unproductive.

I will say, I had an incident a few years ago that really struck me and made me understand that privelege is real and has real implications. One of my kids, who was then a toddler, had an unfortunate accident requiring stitches. These things do happen, of course, but frankly, I was not watching him as well as should have been. I took him to the ER to get stitches. A nurse came to ask for the pertinent info. Here I was, a white, married, highly educated mother, a bit of wreck, naturally, given the situation. The nurse was really nice. "Toddler, amirite?" she joked, or telling my son, "no more jumping on the bed, sweetie pie, you'll give mommy a heart attack!" I was encouraged again and again, "don't beat yourself up, mom, kids have accidents, it happens. We can't keep our eyes on them every second."

On the other side of the curtain, another mother had brought her child in for stitches. Not white, not married, lower socioeconomic status, likely not college educated. They had a social worker there, interrogating the mom really harshly, asking how this happened, don't you know you can never take your eyes off for even a second, maybe you need parenting classes etc. Now, perhaps there was some other reason why they felt the need to get the social worker involved. Obviously I only had a surface view of the situation. But it was really uncomfortable to watch. I just had a gut feeling that if that mom was more similar to me, she probably would have been treated to the jokes and reassurances that I was. This really stuck with me and made me realize that we ALL have things that are outside of our control that influence how we interact with the world. Sometimes to our advantage, sometimes to our disadvantage.
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amother
Wheat


 

Post Tue, Feb 11 2020, 11:58 am
I'm biracial and present as white.
In college I had a (white) history professor explain to me how my race inherently makes me privileged and how people of color are never able to overcome their disadvantage; no matter how successful they are, they would have been more successful had they been white.
I never told her about my racial background. Being young and naive, I thought I could argue through reason, not my so called victimhood. Needless to say, I was graded poorly in that class.
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small bean




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 11 2020, 11:59 am
amother [ Maroon ] wrote:
small bean. I wouldn't ask her that because the obvious answer is that she had to work harder. Ironically when I was in graduate school it was clear that the minorities were accepted more easily in to the program- aka affirmative action.


This is true.

It was really not a serious suggestion because you denying her the idea of white privilege is considered racist and you will only get hurt for taking her on
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small bean




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 11 2020, 12:12 pm
Regarding interrogation you don't know where the accident was how much time she was there etc.

I had my son twice in a span of 3 weeks needed staples on his head. Both accidents happened in school and I purposely went to a different place the second time as the otherwise the school would have been investigated.

My sister, educated, white etc had dyfus open a case on her because she didn't know how her 1 year old broke her knee.

Accidents do happen and if you have a good explanation and it is rare, no one bothers you.

Regarding people staying in their income bracket, a lot boils down to their role models. If you didn't see financial role models than you likely won't know how to do it. That is where thr privilege is. Also the top 1% flucuates, people constantly go in and out of it. Rich don't always stay rich. And poor don't always stay poor. I know people in both categories. It is easier to not work hard at changing your circumstances then it is to stay in your income bracket. I'm not blaming those living in poverty generation after generation.

My husband grew up poor. He has 6 siblings. 1 of them will always be poor, she has the same financial outlook as her parents and her husband had poor role models in that sense as well. There other siblings who while not rich live a regular middle class life. The difference is in the attitude. Is this sibling less capable or does her lack of education in this area effect her? She sees the rest of us that were fine and living middle class lifestyles. Does she think hey how can I get there or does she look for her lack of privilege? Again I'm not blaming her but she does have choices. I see her choices. I see things that can easily change. And of course don't put yourself in other peoples shoes. You never know. That's where judging comes in. So we can't judge others bit the concept of msking choices still stands for everyone.
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amother
OP


 

Post Tue, Feb 11 2020, 12:13 pm
amother [ Bisque ] wrote:
There's no question that privelege absolutely exists. And it's incredibly hard to push back against because if you're in the priveleged group, you have no idea what other people, outside that group, have to deal with, and so it's easy to say "well, I've never seen it, therefore it doesn't exist". The thing is, privelege exists in all categories, and everyone is priveleged in some ways and lack privelege in others. It's not just race and gender, though those are the most talked about. Weight, disability, economic status, marital status, religion--all these involve privelege too. It's just those most vocal about privelege tend to focus on race and gender and forget that it's so much more nuanced. Like sure, white privelege is a thing, but I think we can all agree that Chris Rock's children are going to have more opportunities open to them in life than the children of some white unemployed factory worker in the Rust Belt.

Understanding privelege is useful in terms of making the world a kinder place. However, some have turned it into a cudgel with which to beat people over the head as if you need to constantly apologize for your very existence if you're white or male or whatever. And that's wrong and completely unproductive.

I will say, I had an incident a few years ago that really struck me and made me understand that privelege is real and has real implications. One of my kids, who was then a toddler, had an unfortunate accident requiring stitches. These things do happen, of course, but frankly, I was not watching him as well as should have been. I took him to the ER to get stitches. A nurse came to ask for the pertinent info. Here I was, a white, married, highly educated mother, a bit of wreck, naturally, given the situation. The nurse was really nice. "Toddler, amirite?" she joked, or telling my son, "no more jumping on the bed, sweetie pie, you'll give mommy a heart attack!" I was encouraged again and again, "don't beat yourself up, mom, kids have accidents, it happens. We can't keep our eyes on them every second."

On the other side of the curtain, another mother had brought her child in for stitches. Not white, not married, lower socioeconomic status, likely not college educated. They had a social worker there, interrogating the mom really harshly, asking how this happened, don't you know you can never take your eyes off for even a second, maybe you need parenting classes etc. Now, perhaps there was some other reason why they felt the need to get the social worker involved. Obviously I only had a surface view of the situation. But it was really uncomfortable to watch. I just had a gut feeling that if that mom was more similar to me, she probably would have been treated to the jokes and reassurances that I was. This really stuck with me and made me realize that we ALL have things that are outside of our control that influence how we interact with the world. Sometimes to our advantage, sometimes to our disadvantage.


I totally agree with everything you said.

My feeling regarding the hospital event however, is similar to what was said above, that it is more related to overall presentation (clothes, age, marital status, etc.) than race or ethnicity. My guess is that it makes sense to look a bit more closely at younger, less educated, poorer, unmarried mothers, regardless of their race/ethnicity when it comes to concerns over childcare.
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singleagain




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 11 2020, 12:13 pm
I suggest reading this article and maybe searching the hashtag.

It's not even the big stuff...but the little stuff also.

People Are Tweeting "Outrageous Things" They've Gotten Away With Because Of #MyWhitePrivilege And It's Eye-Opening https://www.buzzfeed.com/ryans.....2EqYr
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amother
OP


 

Post Tue, Feb 11 2020, 12:35 pm
singleagain wrote:
I suggest reading this article and maybe searching the hashtag.

It's not even the big stuff...but the little stuff also.

People Are Tweeting "Outrageous Things" They've Gotten Away With Because Of #MyWhitePrivilege And It's Eye-Opening https://www.buzzfeed.com/ryans.....2EqYr


Yes, certainly. But it has nothing to do with the point I am making, namely, that there are a myriad of sources of privilege.

For instance, I have very little doubt that the coworker I am speaking of could write a post on "attractive privilege" in which she talked herself out of a ticket by virtue of being an attractive, charming young woman and not a matronly middle-aged mom.
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amother
Royalblue


 

Post Tue, Feb 11 2020, 1:13 pm
I agree that white privilege still exists in 2020, even if it’s more subtle. Beauty and youth are also privileges. I recently made an illegal turn because I desperately needed to go to the bathroom. A police officer saw my car and started to walk over angrily. When I got out, his demeanor changed and he nicely asked me why I made the turn. I was able to explain and he said, “okay, just be careful! It could be dangerous to turn there.” I don’t know if he would have treated me the same if I was black, ugly, or older.
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saw50st8




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 11 2020, 1:15 pm
singleagain wrote:
I suggest reading this article and maybe searching the hashtag.

It's not even the big stuff...but the little stuff also.

People Are Tweeting "Outrageous Things" They've Gotten Away With Because Of #MyWhitePrivilege And It's Eye-Opening https://www.buzzfeed.com/ryans.....2EqYr


"#MyWhitePrivilege

I gave birth in a hospital twice and everyone believed my pain and offered relief."

I was in labor in the hospital and hooked up to a bunch of machines. I told the nurse that I felt like I was going to pass out and her response was "But your numbers are fine". A few seconds later everything crashed. I am as white as the driven snow.

"Not really outrageous, but I had chronic headaches (later diagnosed w/ a brain tumor) and not once did a doctor think I was faking it. A friend of mine who is a black man was left screaming in agony with kidney stones because they thought he was seeking drugs. #MyWhitePrivilege"

I have a chronic illness that is hard to diagnose and I was completely disregarded by multiple doctors.

"As a white woman I can walk into any salon and a stylist of any race will be able to cut, color, and style my hair. Everyone learns to empathize with and cater to white people. #MyWhitePrivilege"

Not my hair!


I completely believe that there are situations where white privilege exists, I just hate these examples.
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 11 2020, 1:24 pm
White privilege is real and exists everywhere.

Other kinds of privilege are also real.

I’ve been sick-shamed and disability-shamed so many times. Sad People refuse to believe that I can’t stand (and sometimes can’t sit), that I can’t do stairs, that I am categorically not allowed to lift anything heavier than two kilograms, etc. In my view, able-bodied healthy people are privileged.

But acknowledging white privilege exists doesn’t mean denying the other kinds.
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amother
Blush


 

Post Tue, Feb 11 2020, 1:25 pm
Charlotte Clymer wrote:
Always been pretty tame, but here's a s***** anecdote: every six months over the last ten years living here in D.C., I get cop cars that pull up to me while I'm walking at night... to remind me it's an unsafe neighborhood (it's not) + to ask if I need a ride #MyWhitePrivilege


That actually sounds pretty creepy.
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