UPDATE:How would you react? What’s your parenting philosophy

amother

Maroon

Tue, Feb 11 2020, 11:01 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

So you are going to let your child grow up to be an abuser?

How will she be able to STAY married if she is abusive?

If you care about your DD's FUTURE happiness instead of pleasing DD in the moment
you would teach DD to speak respectfully. Otherwise you are destroying DD's future.

I am not pleasing her. She is clearly suffering. Believe me, she doesn't feel good when she acts this way, whether she is capable of admitting it or not. In fact, I'm quite certain the reason she isn't capable of admitting or apologizing is because she is already self-flagellating on the inside, and making her admit it will just make her crumble. I am helping her survive the battle of the monsters tearing her apart inside her. And I am maintaining the peace and my relationship with her, so when she does grow up and get better, I will hopefully still be in her life to help her on her journey. What's more, I am modelling staying calm, in control, regulated, despite being provoked. Methinks those are good skills to model. Also, you must have missed the part where I said we were working on healing her brain. Kids with ODD have sick brains. They need compassion, not criticism.

amother

Ginger

Tue, Feb 11 2020, 11:17 pm

bigsis144 wrote:

I’m at the stovetop, stirring a pot, almost ready to serve dinner. My seven year old son walks in.

Me: “Hey Moishy, do you want to eat like a ninja? I made stir fry - that’s a food from China! There’s yummy plain rice too.”

(Moishy shoots me with a gun he built out of LEGO)

Moishy: “you know what it means when I shoot you with a bullet? It means you’re being annoying. Be quiet.”

(This is partly for the people who didn’t believe me on the zemiros thread 😕. This kind of thing happens every single day 😔)

—

Especially if you successfully use Nurtured Heart or Explosive Parenting techniques, how would you react?

I pretended he didn’t say anything - not everything has to be addressed in the moment. But when I tried to talk to him later, he just said that I talk too much, my jokes are stupid, and he saw nothing wrong with talking to me that way.

Me: “it’s not acceptable to talk to me - or anyone - like that. It’s hurtful and disrespectful, and it’s not okay.”

Moishy: “well, I think it’s okay.”

Where do I go from here????

The “lagging skill” is holding back the rude thoughts in his head, I think.

I understand some kids get sensorily overwhelmed by too much talking, or may be sensitive/embarrassed by parental humor, but I can’t just let him talk to me like this. It HURTS. Am I supposed to toughen up?? I am working with my therapist on not going into “fight or flight” mode around my kids, but I just want their behavior to CHaNGe ALREADY. I don’t think I’m the problem!!!!

Maybe he was reacting to the China part?

amother

Firebrick

Tue, Feb 11 2020, 11:25 pm

bigsis144 wrote:

I would send the kid to his room.for speaking disrespectfully..(assuming you have had prior conversations about what your expectations are). I tell my kids "you can come out of your room when you feel like you can speak with derech eretz".
If I'm not mistaken Sara Chana Radcliffe says to give them time out for the number of minutes that matches their age, so in this case, 7 minutes.

amother

Firebrick

Tue, Feb 11 2020, 11:54 pm

I haven't read the whole thread but from the first post, and from what you wrote in the zemiros post, it sounds like your kids have special challenges. But for whatever it's worth, I would like to share a methodology I learned from listening to Sara Chana Radcliff. Maybe this could help others. My husband and I have implemented this in my family about 15 years ago and it has been a game changer for us, mainly because it gave me a formula to follow.
(Try to get her lecture called "producing loveable children" . Its excellent! This is just a tiny part of it.)
First comes the teaching stage:
1. At a calm moment, sit with your kids and tell them we are starting a new thing where we are going to speak with respect. The rules are, we ask- we don't tell (not mommy give me a cookie, but mommy can I please have a cookie?)
Also, we speak with a respectful tone of voice. (You can give them examples of what a disrespectful tone sounds like vs. a respectful tone)
2. For the first week after that, when they are disrespectful, remind them "remember we spoke about such and such...?". Have them repeat what they want in the correct way.
also if they ask correctly, try as often as possibly to say yes. Also, praise them for speaking nicely "you said that so nicely! Yes, you may have a cookie."
3. In week two, if they are disrespectful, you don't remind them anymore but you BLOCK.
Either by just raising your eyebrows.
Or by saying, would you like to try that again?
Or by putting the words in their mouth, so let's say they say, "mommy give me a cookie," you rephrase it by saying, "mommy, can I please have a cookie?" And you wait until he says it in a respectful tone.
Then you say, thank you for saying that with derech eretz. Yes you may have a cookie or no, you cant, whatever the answer is.
4. If you say no, they may say, "but, I'm hungry" or "but you said.." Whatever the "but" is, you listen to it, rethink your answer and you have the option to change your mind. If the answer is still no, they can not have another chance to appeal. If you allow more than one appeal, it's called badgering , and that's disrespectful. One "but" is allowed because maybe they have a good reason why you should give them that cookie.
(Needless to say, before saying no the first time, THINK about it first. Dont just automatically say no.)
The worst thing you can do is say yes after they badgered you 7 times. This just teaches them that nudging works.

In general, I find that many of the answers given here are pandering to the kids. I am not an authoritative person by nature and I have a very easy warm relationship with my kids. But they know that I absolutley will not repsond to anything said in a whiny, aggressive or indignant tone. This is thanks to having inculcated this when my kids were little. In fact, once my sister in law and her kids were at my house and my niece shouted at her mother, and I saw my kids were in shock. (So was I) my kids were in shock because they would never dare talk to me like that. my sisterinlaw calmly answered her daughter. I would generally not respond to anything said to me in a disrespectful tone and my kids know this. . Also, and this is super important: as much as possible, the parents should model respectful speech when speaking to each other and their kids.

Her main message was that by teaching your children to speak respectfully to their parents you are giving them the tools to speak respectfully to people in general. It is the parental obligation to "demand" respect from their kids, since the parent- child relationship is the primary relationship. Eventually the child will know how to talk to their spouse with respect and other people in their lives. Just like we may not interrupt a parent, you should not interrupt anyone really, its rude. Same goes for putting down a parent, belittling or being snarky. The halacha tells us we may not put down or belittle a parent. When the child learns that, the hope is that he knows tha he shouldn't talk that way to anyone.
I know this is a long post. Hope this is helpful to someone out there. Very Happy

amother

Blush

Wed, Feb 12 2020, 12:00 am

bigsis144 wrote:

Me: “it’s not acceptable to talk to me - or anyone - like that. It’s hurtful and disrespectful, and it’s not okay.”

Moishy: “well, I think it’s okay.”

Where do I go from here????

You did great! You didn't make a big deal and you told him it's not ok and you explained why.

My kids aren't ODD except one is slightly leaning that way, but when they've said " but I think it's ok" after I've said it isn't, I've answered like this:
(First you make sure you have eye contact so you know they're listening. I'll say: "look at me please, I have something important to tell you" if necessary.)
- It's NOT ok and since Hashem made me the mother, my job is to teach you the right way. We don't talk like that to our mothers. Even our friends wouldn't like it if we said that to them. And you also would not like it if someone says that to you.
Or
- We dont talk like that to our mothers. I dont speak that way to my mother, she didnt speak that way to her mother, and it is not ok to speak that way to me. One day when you are a father, you too will teach your children the right way to speak.
Or, if I see it's a good time, I will say: I think you meant: wow mommy! Thank you so much for the delicious supper you made!
And then I get them to repeat that quickly and then we move on. Sometimes when I've worked extra hard for one of my children and they forget to say thank you, I make them say: "thank you mommy! You're the best mommy in the world!" And by now when I remind them, they giggle and laugh and blush and it's really cute. My point is that sometimes you just have to make them repeat things like "sorry," "please," and "thank you" just so it is easier for them to say it when necessary.

So if you aren't making a big deal, it's not a power struggle, you laid down the rules, and you don't back down, that sounds perfect. And humor always helps to get a message across and to diffuse tension. Just please dont selfdeprecate in front of your kids. I dont think kids get it.

groisamomma

Wed, Feb 12 2020, 12:04 am

amother [ Maroon ] wrote:

Do you mind if I ask which steps you are taking to heal (what you call) her sick brain? Meaning, a medication that will fix a chemical imbalance? Or are the things in your previous post what you refer to as methods to healing her brain?

(No offense, but I can't think of anything more offensive than to say someone has a sick brain. Even if it's true and even if she never hears you say it. To me it's hurtful and sounds spiteful. I understand that it's coming from a place of hurt but my heart breaks for a little girl whose perception of herself is that she has a sick brain.)

Hug

#BestBubby

Wed, Feb 12 2020, 12:16 am

amother [ Firebrick ] wrote:

Beautiful! These parents who are letting their kids grow up disrespectful are committing child abuse in my opinion. In the long run, this will ruin their kids' lives.

amother

Lemon

Wed, Feb 12 2020, 9:25 am

amother [ Maroon ] wrote:

I wonder if the lagging skill is admitting that he was wrong. My "challenging child" is like that. Trying to get her to admit or apologize sends her over the edge. Literally. No matter how much time has elapsed, how calm she is, what a pleasant evening we had. She always ends up escalating and spiraling way out of control. She will end up saying more and more hurtful things. It's part of the oppositional defiant package. I gave up on discipline a long time ago. It's obvious to me that she can't help herself, not with the rude remarks, nor with the inability to own up and apologize. We just work on healing her brain.

ETA: I'm so so so sorry you are going through this. It's a special kind of h*ll.

Just to give you chizik, my son had sooo many lagging skills and delayed brain development at that age, and apologizing and admitting fault was something he really could not do. At about age 8, I remember starting a series of discussions about how the Torah defines a "gibbor" - someone strong and brave on the inside, not the outside. We talked at every opportunity that it takes a brave strong man to say "I was wrong, I'm sorry," or "it was an accident, I'm sorry." Now my son is 12, and he apologizes on his own, without coaching, when appropriate. I would say his brain takes about 2 years longer than average to develop in the areas of social awarenes and social skills, but he has made sooo much progress, I actually LIKE my son, and for many years I just accepted that I would only love, but not like, this child. Please dont give up, be consistent about the important things in life, b'ezras Hashem it will sink in!

amother

Pewter

Wed, Feb 12 2020, 11:08 am

Everyone here is telling you what to do without getting to the root of the problem.

My son is like this. He always wants quiet and doesn't let me or his sister talk. He is very sensory and any noise really does bother him. Imagine if someone was screaming in your ear constantly or another horrible sound. You would be fed up and going crazy from it. There is no excuse for him to treat you this way and he has to respect others BUT you need to show him you get it and you understand. In the moment I would actually say I don't like that you are demanding quiet but I understand you would like quiet time now and I would be quiet.

Then later at bedtime or when we're having special time, I would tell him that I know it's hard for him but I love talking to him and is there a solution for us to make this work. Problem solve together for future times when he wants quiet. Either he can leave the room and go have alone time. Or you can be quiet for a minute but not for longer.

He needs to be shown that you care and you believe in him.

Punishing him is ridiculous. If you had a really loud sound in your ear you would also be upset. Some kids are very sensitive to sound

amother

Firebrick

Wed, Feb 12 2020, 11:43 am

amother [ Pewter ] wrote:

If you really think it's because of his sensitivity to sound, maybe you should get him noise canceling ear muffs? Would that help?
Then you could sing all you want Wink

mha3484

Wed, Feb 12 2020, 11:56 am

Petwer amother is totally on to something. I think the noise cancelling headphones are such a great idea.

I was thinking about this earlier today. I as a 36 year old adult have a boss that is a HUGE micro manager. I can take it. Hes super nice and I like my job very much but towards the end of the day you just feel done. So when I come home and the kids are in my face asking a million questions and DH wants to know if I did x y or z it can drive you to snap. I have coping strategies to deal with it and I rarely snap but I am not perfect. This took time to figure out.

A kid goes to school and based on circumstances (special ed etc) gets micro managed allllllllll day long. My kid with ADHD used to spend a large part of his day getting micro managed. They need it so they can be functional people in society but when they come home at the end of the day they don't always have coping strategies so when they feel bossed around they explode. For some kids school can be really discouraging. I think when you keep that in mind and really empathize you get to the root of the issue and then the kid is receptive to what you have to say.

saw50st8

Wed, Feb 12 2020, 12:47 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

To all amothers making excuses for Disrespect, claiming the child is "suffering" from ADHD, ODD, Sensory, Micromanaging, etc.

One day this 7 year old will be a Husband and Father, an Employee - and still might suffer from all of the above. NOBODY is going to excuse his Disrespect then! It can lead to divorce, children who cut you out of their lives, being fired, etc.

Unless you TEACH your child to be respectful of others, you are DOOMING your child to a
horrible tragic life.

You must teach your DC to say, "PLEASE, I need some quiet time now." Instead of hurting others. Your DC should go to his room and play alone if he needs some quiet time.

If your child doesn't have the capacity to learn, it doesn't matter what you try to teach them. With challenging children, you often has to postpone things like "respectful communication" until they can handle it. It is not a matter of pushing it off forever, it is a matter of waiting until they can learn it. Different kids learn different things at different ages and behavior is no different.

saw50st8

Wed, Feb 12 2020, 12:56 pm

bigsis144 wrote:

I'm a big fan of Ross Greene for all my children. They all have their own challenges and his method lets you figure out how to help each child.

If my child were in an OK mood, I would probably say to them "I hear that I'm annoying you. What's going on?" If he wasn't receptive to expanding on that I might follow up with "Do you think that there's a better way to ask me to stop talking?" Sometimes they have trouble coming up with an appropriate sentence so I might provide an alternative.

As to your later conversation, I think you need to dig a little bit further. Ask him what he likes about that language. Ask about other people talking to him that way - does he like it? How does it make him feel?

I think disrespectful language is usually predicated by other things.

Keep in mind that these methods are not quick. Results take a long time.

#BestBubby

Wed, Feb 12 2020, 1:58 pm

saw50st8 wrote:

I think that the OLDER the child is the HARDER it is to teach them respect for others.

The more a bad behavior is repeated the more the brain wiring is re-inforced to that bad behavior

I believe teaching children to be respectful (not abusive) to others is the highest priority - more important than reading and math - which is easier to teach when older than to teach a teen to be respectful after a childhood of being abusive.

amother

Ecru

Wed, Feb 12 2020, 2:58 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

Beautiful! These parents who are letting their kids grow up disrespectful are committing child abuse in my opinion. In the long run, this will ruin their kids' lives.

Best Bubby , I Hear you and I used to think just like you until I had a difficult child of my own. Your approach works well with typical children. Some children are frankly just born with a certain temperament or wired differently and the typical parenting doesn’t work with them. I have a child who I’m sure people with your attitude or who haven’t experienced a difficult child look at and think , What a rude disrespectful , spoiled brat. The parents are raising him all wrong. He’s going to grow up to be a horrible person.

I’ve tried following Sarah Radcliffe and a whole lot more, done some parenting classes, and all of the reading including the Explosive Child approach. I follow the methods. I dish out the consequences. I demand respect. I say please and Thank you and I tell dc to say please and thank you.( I happen to be a very respectful and grateful person personally and that’s what I model) I have him work for his privileges .

Why don’t I just sit dc down and have a calm meeting letting him know that from now on we will speak respectfully? Because dc doesn’t do calm meetings or calm anything. He also doesn’t sit down.
Parent: please sit down let’s talk. Child: continues to wander around not listening. Parent: If you’re not sitting and listening , you will go straight to your room. Child: Ok I love going to my room or Parent : I will give you rice cakes for snack instead of chips. Dc: Fine I’ll get snack from someone else.