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amother




OP
 

Post  Sat, Feb 15 2020, 10:58 pm
Maybe because I am privileged because I have many schools to choose from, but I have great issues with people sending to schools which do not align with their haskafa and they think that they are exempt from following school rules.
I am not saying that my DDs follow school rules perfectly, as I wish they would- but those are arguments we have at home (and I am kind of happy when she gets called out on it), but chinuch needs to be a school-parent partnership. If you don't abide by the rules, you are undermining the school and their ability to teach the children, harming the schools reputation, and it is unfair to the other parent who want to instill certain things in their children who are now being put in a unfair and terrible situation.
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amother




Cobalt
 

Post  Sun, Feb 16 2020, 12:24 am
The schools should be working for the parents, not the other way around. If schools are imposing rules that do not match the parent body, it is due to an imbalance of power.
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Feb 16 2020, 2:40 am
amother [ Cobalt ] wrote:
The schools should be working for the parents, not the other way around. If schools are imposing rules that do not match the parent body, it is due to an imbalance of power.


In Monsey, space in the school of your choice is at a premium so they can turn down students whose mothers drive. They don't need to kowtow to the parents. Of course, more modern schools exist but then the family has to admit that they belong there.
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amother




Mint
 

Post  Sun, Feb 16 2020, 3:26 am
I also live in a city with many many schools.
My son attends a MO school where the administration doesn't put their heads in the sand regarding smartphones. Every kid has one. The school communicates with the parents through WhatsApp and email.
They take internet safety VERY seriously and have lots of classes on it. There are lots of rules about phone use during school and my son got his phone taken away because he broke a rule. We fully support that. He knew he was doing something wrong.
I love that his teachers can communicate with the students via WhatsApp.
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cinnamon




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Feb 16 2020, 3:30 am
southernbubby wrote:
In Monsey, space in the school of your choice is at a premium so they can turn down students whose mothers drive. They don't need to kowtow to the parents. Of course, more modern schools exist but then the family has to admit that they belong there.


This issue is really so much more complicated than that.
What happens to the family who aligns perfectly with the school's hashkafa besides for in the one issue of women driving?
Do they send to the more modern school and expose their daughter to all the things they really don't agree with? (dress, communication, entertainment etc)
Does the mother stop driving? Is that fair to ask such a sacrifice of her and the rest of the family?
Do they ask for an exemption from the school? Is it fair that they get one?

I don't know the right answer but we're dealing with neshamos here and people's future. It really isn't simple.

I have two ideas of the ideal school. The first accepts everyone and keeps an opened dialog with their students regarding correct hashkafa and how to translate this hshkafa to everyday life.
The second is purely academic and leaves all the hashkafa and yidishkeit teaching to the parents.

Neither of them are very realistic. The first requires way to much resources. The second ignores the fact that most parents today will not have the time/patients/knowledge that will be needed to teach the girls, plus girls will spend the majority of their time in school and they will be influenced by their teachers and friends whether I like it or not.
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shirachadasha




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Feb 16 2020, 4:28 am
Kids are individuals. With the best chinuch, you can have kids who aren't in line hashkafikly with their parents or the other kids in the family.
Maybe a modern-leaning girl is in a more "open" bais yaakov as a compromise with her very machmir parents.
Maybe the parents can handle only so many building funds or school schedules and the kids are in a school that's the best fit for most (but not all) of them.
Maybe in an earlier grade the kid was more to the right but changed (possibly due to influence of kids in the school itself).
As many ImaMothers will tell you, they are content to have their kids accepted into any school, ideally a school that's a pretty good fit. But being accepted to school that's a perfect match isn't a given.
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Feb 16 2020, 5:05 am
My Chassidishe Monsey neighbors believe that a woman's desire to drive comes with a desire to be modern in other ways so they don't view it as a singular decision made simply to better serve the family. The schools keep a tight rein on the families. They know that negative change can start with a small change in one person that spreads to others.
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notshanarishona




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Feb 16 2020, 5:19 am
I think imposing rules on the parents is taking things too far . I don't support a school who forces the parents to have kosher phones or the mothers to not drive . I 1000% support the schools making rules for their students. That's what their job is .
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PinkFridge




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Feb 16 2020, 5:58 am
amother [ Mint ] wrote:
I also live in a city with many many schools.
My son attends a MO school where the administration doesn't put their heads in the sand regarding smartphones. Every kid has one. The school communicates with the parents through WhatsApp and email.
They take internet safety VERY seriously and have lots of classes on it. There are lots of rules about phone use during school and my son got his phone taken away because he broke a rule. We fully support that. He knew he was doing something wrong.
I love that his teachers can communicate with the students via WhatsApp.


A few years ago there was a list of technology rules in a DL school circulating. I thought it was great. I thought it showed real thought.

But it's still not the rules my kids' school had, and my kids' schools' rules worked for us. Our local TAG office will not work on a smartphone for high school kids, because the yeshiva day schools do not want the kids on social networking. It's very possible some kids still have it, I don't know. I'm glad we could avoid it in high school.

I know it's not pashut. I have a good friend in a large east coast school that I might well have sent my kids to had we lived there and she said that it was impossible for her daughter to manage without whatsapp because she was missing out on study groups and production info. Since I'm not a parent in that school I didn't question the production info. Surely something officially school related like production info should be managed more effectively by the school. But in any event, it made me realize that things are more complex.

I still think that even in 2020 yeshiva day schools should be able to make some reasonable rules, including social networking.
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Feb 16 2020, 6:01 am
notshanarishona wrote:
I think imposing rules on the parents is taking things too far . I don't support a school who forces the parents to have kosher phones or the mothers to not drive . I 1000% support the schools making rules for their students. That's what their job is .


It's a tightrope walk because things go down the tubes quickly. My girls drove in high school which was what the others did. One day a student flipped the car on the highway on the way to school by taking a curve too fast. The school wanted to say that the students were not safe drivers and therefore none of them should drive. The mothers wanted the kids to drive to school and on errands and won the right to keep the kids behind the wheel. The mothers won and luckily there were no more accidents but kids drive because other kids drive but sometimes it's fuzzy who is responsible.
Same with one parent changing the attitudes of the other parents which eventually can change the nature of the school.
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amother




Crimson
 

Post  Sun, Feb 16 2020, 6:23 am
southernbubby wrote:
My Chassidishe Monsey neighbors believe that a woman's desire to drive comes with a desire to be modern in other ways so they don't view it as a singular decision made simply to better serve the family. The schools keep a tight rein on the families. They know that negative change can start with a small change in one person that spreads to others.


You're right by how they view it. Unfortunately they made it like that. If someone starts driving as a necessity, but then feels labeled "modern" already, she says the heck with everything else....
If it wouldn't be made into an issue, then she doesnt have to be feel guilty for doing something so normal.
Forbidden waters taste sweeter...

Compare it to 8 (?) yrs ago, with smartphones. Ppl couldn't accept it yet, so they viewed it as the most modern thing...after the TAG asifah, people glared at you if you were seen with a smartphone. But today, the most normal people own one...
People have a hard time with change. If chassidish schools will finally change their policy about the old fashioned reason of not driving and allow it, it wouldn't be viewed as a desire to be "modern". But thats not happening anytime soon....
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amother




Orange
 

Post  Sun, Feb 16 2020, 6:33 am
southernbubby wrote:
My Chassidishe Monsey neighbors believe that a woman's desire to drive comes with a desire to be modern in other ways so they don't view it as a singular decision made simply to better serve the family. The schools keep a tight rein on the families. They know that negative change can start with a small change in one person that spreads to others.


Because a Chassidish woman who choose to drive in Monsey (not the old days ones who drive or whose parents drive) does so as part of a huge statement.
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amother




Crimson
 

Post  Sun, Feb 16 2020, 6:43 am
amother [ Orange ] wrote:
Because a Chassidish woman who choose to drive in Monsey (not the old days ones who drive or whose parents drive) does so as part of a huge statement.
..

Which huge statement? I know plenty of people that started driving as a necessity.
Having a growing family, and partially being sick of waiting and interacting with Haitian and Latino drivers on a daily basis.
Dealing with them is not more tznius, IMO.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Feb 16 2020, 6:53 am
In my experience, schools should be focusing a lot less on restrictions, and a lot more on middos and making intelligent decisions.

DD went to a very well respected cheder for first grade. She learned some very salty language there. One day when she was mad at me she put a note on my desk that said "Fuk Yew". I asked her who says that, and she replied "Dovi says it all the time!" Dovi's parents were big time donors to the school, with yichus back to the cave man days. Nobody was going to say boo to this kid. (*not the kid's real name)

We switched schools for second grade. She had a Shabbos sleepover with a friend. The friend stole her mom's smartphone, and they played video games under the covers all of Shabbos.

DD was bullied relentlessly by other kids, and nobody did anything to stop it until I went down there and parked myself in the principal's office.

These kids don't need to know that everything under the sun is ossur. They need to learn how to behave like decent human beings. If you teach that, 99% of your worries will go away.
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Ravenclaw




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Feb 16 2020, 6:54 am
PinkFridge wrote:
A few years ago there was a list of technology rules in a DL school circulating. I thought it was great. I thought it showed real thought.

But it's still not the rules my kids' school had, and my kids' schools' rules worked for us. Our local TAG office will not work on a smartphone for high school kids, because the yeshiva day schools do not want the kids on social networking. It's very possible some kids still have it, I don't know. I'm glad we could avoid it in high school.

I know it's not pashut. I have a good friend in a large east coast school that I might well have sent my kids to had we lived there and she said that it was impossible for her daughter to manage without whatsapp because she was missing out on study groups and production info. Since I'm not a parent in that school I didn't question the production info. Surely something officially school related like production info should be managed more effectively by the school. But in any event, it made me realize that things are more complex.

I still think that even in 2020 yeshiva day schools should be able to make some reasonable rules, including social networking.


See, but this isn’t so simple either. My husband went to a very frum yeshiva with the “no cellphone” rule, and he said every other boy had an illegal, unfiltered phone as a result.
I believe in rules that deal with reality, not an ideal only a few elite are actually living.
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amother




Gray
 

Post  Sun, Feb 16 2020, 10:22 am
amother [ Crimson ] wrote:
..

Which huge statement? I know plenty of people that started driving as a necessity.

Me too, but the kids are still in the school of their parents choice.
I currently don't drive, but thought about it at some point due to a job opportunity which required it. Maybe I'm niave, but I believe that if all else matches up, eg. my tznius standards, sensitivity to community norms, no flaunting of technological no-nos, etc. my kids would remain in school/cheder of the chassidus I belong to.
I've seen the same for others. Not a single kid was thrown out of my the mossad I send to for this reason.
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notshanarishona




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Feb 16 2020, 10:38 am
southernbubby wrote:
It's a tightrope walk because things go down the tubes quickly. My girls drove in high school which was what the others did. One day a student flipped the car on the highway on the way to school by taking a curve too fast. The school wanted to say that the students were not safe drivers and therefore none of them should drive. The mothers wanted the kids to drive to school and on errands and won the right to keep the kids behind the wheel. The mothers won and luckily there were no more accidents but kids drive because other kids drive but sometimes it's fuzzy who is responsible.
Same with one parent changing the attitudes of the other parents which eventually can change the nature of the school.


A no student driving rule is very different than a no woman driving rule.
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