Which sins are punished with kares?

malki2

Sun, Feb 16 2020, 3:04 pm

amother [ Ruby ] wrote:

No that's סקילה.
The only one of the 4 misos b"d thats still around is kares.

Kares is Bidei Shamayim. The 4 misos are סקילה, שריפה, הרג, חנק.

imasoftov

Sun, Feb 16 2020, 3:37 pm

malki2 wrote:

Yes, the Rambam I was referring to is in Hilchot Teshuva 1:2. The שעיר המשתלח is Mechaper on ALL sins. Including Karet. And our Yom Kippur service is in place of the Avoda of the Beit Hamikdash.

OK, now that we all are looking at the same Rambams, all we need to hear is a source for your claim that tradition follows 1:2 but not 1:4.

malki2

Sun, Feb 16 2020, 11:18 pm

imasoftov wrote:

OK, now that we all are looking at the same Rambams, all we need to hear is a source for your claim that tradition follows 1:2 but not 1:4.

We say in the הגדה:

ובנה לנו את בית הבחירה לכפר על כל כוונותינו.

And nowadays it’s ונשלמה פרים שפתינו.

imasoftov

Mon, Feb 17 2020, 5:38 am

malki2 wrote:

We say in the הגדה:

ובנה לנו את בית הבחירה לכפר על כל כוונותינו.

And nowadays it’s ונשלמה פרים שפתינו.

The Hagada doesn't say whether the kapparah is immediate, so it does not contradict Hil. Teshuva 1:4.

Rappel

Mon, Feb 17 2020, 5:44 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Do all opinions agree with the Rambam that it is only for sins committed from the age of 20?

I've never yet found one which disagrees.

BadTichelDay

Mon, Feb 17 2020, 6:00 am

amother [ Chartreuse ] wrote:

Who is "our"? There's no get out of jail free card. So if Hitler yemach shmo fasted yom kippur he'd be fine? That's not schar vaonesh.

1) Yom Kippur only atones for Jews. A non-Jew cannot fast on Yom Kippur and get his sins atoned for. That day is designated for Am Yisrael alone and nobody else.
(In the days of the Beit Hamikdash, 70 bulls were sacrificed during Sukkot for the 70 nations of the world but that's not connected to kares or sins of an individual).

2) Fasting and going to shul on Yom Kippur are not enough to atone. There has to be genuine tshuvah involved as well. It says in Mishnah Yoma 8:8-9 that one who says "I will sin (= deliberately) and then Yom Kippur will atone for me" will not be forgiven.

Elfrida

Mon, Feb 17 2020, 6:01 am

malki2 wrote:

We say in the הגדה:

ובנה לנו את בית הבחירה לכפר על כל כוונותינו.

And nowadays it’s ונשלמה פרים שפתינו.

Dayenu is a song, which was a relatively late addition to the hagada, and is not halachically authoritative.

malki2

Mon, Feb 17 2020, 7:39 am

Elfrida wrote:

Dayenu is a song, which was a relatively late addition to the hagada, and is not halachically authoritative.

1. The quote was not from Dayenu. It’s after Dayenu.
2. Who said that Dayenu was added later?

amother

Cerise

Mon, Feb 17 2020, 8:12 am

Anyone on this thread want to learn one night a week one of the Kesuvim I.e. iyov, divrei hayamim etc. ? New York time 9 pm.
Thank you.

Elfrida

Mon, Feb 17 2020, 2:38 pm

malki2 wrote:

1. The quote was not from Dayenu. It’s after Dayenu.
2. Who said that Dayenu was added later?

Why don't you look things up for yourself sometimes, instead of throwing out more questions to confuse the issue?

Dayenu does not feature in the Mishna. There first record of it is in the ninth century in the Seder Rav Amram, though it has earlier origins. The Rambam does not include it in his hagada at the end of Hilchot Chametz u'Matza a few centuries later, indicating that he did not consider it an essential part of the seder.

The paragraph immediately following the song Dayenu is part of the same piyut, where the wonders that were performed are addressed from opposite directions, as it were. It was written as a piyut, and it would be hard to argue that it has any halachic authority.

None of this has any bearing on whether kapara is only related to fasting on Yom Kippur, or whether Yom Kippur has the facility to delay punishment to give time for suffering and full atonement.

malki2

Mon, Feb 17 2020, 3:18 pm

Elfrida wrote:

If Yom Kippur atones, it atones completely, not just delays punishment. But the fasting is necessary for the atonement. Per the Rambam in Hilchot Teshuva 1:2, it seems that it does atone completely. I’m not going to go back and forth about Dayenu, except to say that whoever wrote it surely knew what he was talking about, and said that the Beit Hamikdash atones for all our sins. And the only time that this atonement would have taken place would have been on Yom Kippur, because the other korbanot did not stone for the more serious sins. I understand that you want more of a proof, though. I don’t have the ability to look things up now, but I’ll try to get something later.

malki2

Mon, Feb 17 2020, 4:14 pm

Elfrida wrote:

Why don't you look things up for yourself sometimes, instead of throwing out more questions to confuse the issue?

Whoa, by the way! Take it easy! It’s just a discussion.

marina

Mon, Feb 17 2020, 9:36 pm

malki2 wrote:

The common ones are forbidden relations and chillul Shabbos. Teshuva is always possible though and is excepted. Especially Yom Kippur is effective in wiping slates clean. For any aveira.

source for chillul shabbos being punished by kares? I don’t think that’s accurate at all.

malki2

Mon, Feb 17 2020, 10:11 pm

marina wrote:

source for chillul shabbos being punished by kares? I don’t think that’s accurate at all.

I think chillul Shabbos without either witnesses and warning is punished by kares. But I could be wrong. I don’t recall a source.

malki2

Mon, Feb 17 2020, 10:28 pm

Elfrida wrote:

According to the Rambam in Hilchot Teshuva:

עבר על כריתות ומיתות בית דין ועשה תשובה, תשובה ויום הכיפורים תולים, ויסורין הבאים עליו גומרים לו כפרה. ולעולם אין מכפר לו כפרה גמורה, עד שיבואו עליו יסורין.

"Someone who committed aveirot that would require death at the hands of a Beit Din or karet; teshuvah and Yom Kippur can delay the punishment, and suffering that will come upon him completes the kapara. It is impossible for him to reach this full kapara until he had undergone suffering."

Teshuva and Yom Kippur alone are sufficient for more minor aveirot - according to the Rambam this would be if one transgressed a positive or negative mitzva that does not involve karet or death at the hands of Beit Din.

I’m pretty sure that I remember learning it the way I had told you, but I can’t find the source. So for now I’ll say that you are correct.

marina

Mon, Feb 17 2020, 11:49 pm

malki2 wrote:

I think chillul Shabbos without either witnesses and warning is punished by kares. But I could be wrong. I don’t recall a source.

I don’t mean to be rude here, but if you don’t have a source, then don’t tell people breaking shabbos gets them kareis; that’s a pretty irresponsible thing to do.

Elfrida

Tue, Feb 18 2020, 12:21 am

The mishna in Keritot specifies a list of 36 aveirot that are punishable by karet. About a third of them are related to the Mikdash and are currently not applicable. Many of the rest relate to forbidden relations.

S

Quote:

-xual intercourse with one’s mother
S-xual intercourse with one’s father’s wife
S-xual intercourse with one’s son’s wife
A male having s-xual intercourse with another male
A male having s-xual intercourse with an animal
A female having s-xual intercourse with an animal
Having s-xual intercourse with both a mother and her daughter within the span of his lifetime
S-xual intercourse with a married woman
S-xual intercourse with one’s sister
S-xual intercourse with one’s father’s sister
S-xual intercourse with one’s mother’s sister
S-xual intercourse with the sister of one’s wife
S-xual intercourse with one’s brother’s wife
S-xual intercourse with the wife of one’s father’s brother
S-xual intercourse with a menstruating woman, known as a nida (נדה)
Cursing God using the appropriate holy name, known as megadef (מגדף)
Worshiping a deity other than God, known as Avodah Zarah (עבודה זרה)
Sacrificing one’s child to Moloch (מלך)
Consulting with a spirit through a process known as ohv (אוב)
Violating the Shabbat (שבת) by doing one of the 39 categories of activities prohibited on Shabbat
Eating of an offering while in a state of ritual impurity, known as tumah (טומאה)
Entering the temple or Tabernacle while in a state of ritual impurity, known as tumah (טומאה)
Eating of a form of animal fat known as chelev (חלב)
Eating or drinking blood
Eating of an offering after the allowable time for the eating of that offering has expired. An offering in this state is known as notar (נותר)
Eating of an offering that was offered with the intention of eating of it after the allowable time for the eating of that offering has expired. Such an offering is known as pigul (פיגול)
Slaughtering an offering outside the boundaries of the temple or Tabernacle
Offering up an offering upon an altar outside the boundaries of the temple or Tabernacle
Eating (a ketzayith (olives measure) of) chametz on Passover

Eating or drinking on Yom Kippur
Violating Yom Kippur by doing one of the 39 categories of activities that are prohibited on Shabbat
Creating a replication of the holy anointing oil (שמן המשחה) that was used for the anointment of high priests and kings of the house of David that was made by Moses, using the same ingredients and precise measurements, and creating it in the same volume as created by Moses [13]
Creating a replication of the incense offering, known as the Ketoret (קטרת), using the same ingredients and precise measurements of the Ketoret
Anointing oneself with the holy anointing oil that was created by Moses
Failure to bring the Passover offering
Failure to circumcise oneself

There is a further wealth of literature discussing the conditions and circumstances in which this would actually be applicable. It's not for us to make hasty decisions or interpretations on the subject.

malki2

Tue, Feb 18 2020, 4:33 am

marina wrote:

I don’t mean to be rude here, but if you don’t have a source, then don’t tell people breaking shabbos gets them kareis; that’s a pretty irresponsible thing to do.

Marina, source was listed by Elfidra.

Brownies

Tue, Feb 18 2020, 4:43 am

marina wrote:

I don’t mean to be rude here, but if you don’t have a source, then don’t tell people breaking shabbos gets them kareis; that’s a pretty irresponsible thing to do.

Shemot 31:14

וּשְׁמַרְתֶּם֙ אֶת־הַשַּׁבָּ֔ת כִּ֛י קֹ֥דֶשׁ הִ֖וא לָכֶ֑ם מְחַֽלְלֶ֙יהָ֙ מ֣וֹת יוּמָ֔ת כִּ֗י כָּל־הָעֹשֶׂ֥ה בָהּ֙ מְלָאכָ֔ה וְנִכְרְתָ֛ה הַנֶּ֥פֶשׁ הַהִ֖וא מִקֶּ֥רֶב עַמֶּֽיהָ׃
You shall keep the sabbath, for it is holy for you. He who profanes it shall be put to death: whoever does work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his kin.

Elfrida

Tue, Feb 18 2020, 6:11 am

malki2 wrote:

Marina, source was listed by Elfidra.

I only found and posted that list some time after you had posted the original comment. I agree that when making statements like that it is better to provide a source rather than relying on potentially flawed memory.