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Spinoff of idealistic young couples
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amother




OP
 

Post  Mon, Feb 17 2020, 9:32 am
I just want to put something out there - some of us are raised that the importance of starting off ones marriage in kollel is so important that parents will do anything to help out a daughter financially whos husband is learning. Im a daughter of such parents. I was raised yeshivish. I got married a little late for my circles (under 25 still). Dh was already pursuing school and I had savings therefore we never got support. Here we are 6+ years later bh with a few kids and dh is still in school and earning zero. Im lucky with my job and cant complain about finances but my sisters has been getting a monthly check from my parents for the past 4 years... yes it's as weird culture but in the yeshivish world its not the kids creating this craziness, its the parents!!
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amother




Jade
 

Post  Mon, Feb 17 2020, 9:40 am
Similar story here. Also got married older to wonderful dh who at that point was already pursuing a degree.

He was in school full time so I was main breadwinner anyways. The job market at the time was hard and frustrating. When I see threads discussing the difficulties of kollel I just think "some have no idea how much easier they got it."

I made the best of the situation and built a beautiful happy home. I wasn't easy. It was a much more stressful way to start a marriage.

Trust me having boys go to work early in marriage ain't solving all problems and a bowl of cherries either.
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amother




Jetblack
 

Post  Mon, Feb 17 2020, 9:42 am
In other words, to pursue a kollel life is not just about spirituality. It's about getting a check.

Better find a learning boy then!
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amother




Aubergine
 

Post  Mon, Feb 17 2020, 9:53 am
So many communities rely on daddy sprinkles. Not just kolel. I know very few fully self made people. If your parents paid your higher education, if they gave you a down payment for your house, if they give money for chagim, etc. You're getting daddy sprinkles.

My husband and I both left our homes at young ages 18 without any support. And we met later in life. We paid our own way through everything. We don't own a home. Our daddy sprinkles only come from HKBH. The Torah he learns is nightly after a hard day of work.

BZH we should all get lots of daddy sprinkles and feel rich.

There is no foolproof plan for parnasa. Really. Truly. Even work doesn't guarantee a paycheck.
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sequoia




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Feb 17 2020, 9:55 am
What is he studying for?
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amother




Red
 

Post  Mon, Feb 17 2020, 9:57 am
amother [ Aubergine ] wrote:
So many communities rely on daddy sprinkles. Not just kolel. I know very few fully self made people. If your parents paid your higher education, if they gave you a down payment for your house, if they give money for chagim, etc. You're getting daddy sprinkles.



First of all, I resent the phrase 'daddy sprinkles'. It's the first I hear of it. Since when is daddy the only one earning money, or the only one who decides where it goes? What an archaic phrase.

Second, higher education is just a push towards independence. It's not like funding kollel, which is a push away.
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amother




Wheat
 

Post  Mon, Feb 17 2020, 10:00 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I just want to put something out there - some of us are raised that the importance of starting off ones marriage in kollel is so important that parents will do anything to help out a daughter financially whos husband is learning. Im a daughter of such parents. I was raised yeshivish. I got married a little late for my circles (under 25 still). Dh was already pursuing school and I had savings therefore we never got support. Here we are 6+ years later bh with a few kids and dh is still in school and earning zero. Im lucky with my job and cant complain about finances but my sisters has been getting a monthly check from my parents for the past 4 years... yes it's as weird culture but in the yeshivish world its not the kids creating this craziness, its the parents!!

This is only one side of the coin. Because it's an expectation that the "best boys" will stay in learning, the parents feel obligated to offer support. It's not that the parents are creating the craziness, it's the society that applies the pressure to give our kids the best. In the olden days, few people stayed in learning, only the very, very top. Those boys were usually taken by the wealthiest people in town and/or the rosh yeshiva. Your average shoemaker, tailor and milkman did not expect to get a son in law who would stay in learning. However, he was expected to provide a nice dowry for his daughter, along with bedding, clothes etc, otherwise she could never get married. That was a great hardship too.
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amother




Papaya
 

Post  Mon, Feb 17 2020, 10:03 am
My parents In Law support some of the children (not us)

They have this expectation that the boys will continue learning long term while they support. But it doesn't come without a price. All the couples who receive money get told how to live their life and PIL get upset when they see them do stuff they disapprove of (even hashkafikally and not financially)

I was appalled to find out from SIL how much they scrutiny they have from parents.

We are the only couple who never got supported by them and live our life the way we please.

I guess people such like them have pressure to show off to acquaintances that their children are learning but then they also have the pressure for the children to do everything "right"

I'm sure they value torah learning too though...
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amother




Jade
 

Post  Mon, Feb 17 2020, 12:26 pm
sequoia wrote:
What is he studying for?


I don't know if that question was adrssed at me and I don't really want to go into details about my life here. It happens to be my dh was in a top school for a lucrative field ( medical , dental, law) the type of school that guarantees 100 percent job placement on graduation.

all that is besides the point.

My point was starting off married life in school and working is far from a bed of roses. Those who post " just have dh get a jo and support you" are the idealistic naive ones to me- not the letter writer quoted in the previous thread.

And I've seen and watched plenty of families both who started off working and In kollel

Oh boy are people naive. Wooohooo are people living in the clouds. Getting a job/ profession and top degree is no magic wand to a life in easy stret. Cool Cool
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amother




Red
 

Post  Mon, Feb 17 2020, 12:28 pm
amother [ Jade ] wrote:


Oh boy are people naive. Wooohooo are people living in the clouds. Getting a job/ profession and top degree is no magic wand to a life in easy stret. Cool Cool


Of course it's not. The point isn't to be living in easy street, it's not to be pinching money from your over-stressed parents.
It may not be easier for you to be working, but it's easier for your parents!
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SixOfWands




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Feb 17 2020, 12:37 pm
Not my monkey, not my circus. I don’t understand the kollel thing, and don’t understand how it is sustainable.

But as an outsider, here’s my take, again.

TALK.

Talk to your kids about what things cost. Talk to your kids about today and tomorrow and what happens in 10 years. Talk about the money it takes, and how (or if) you can help.

We do that outside of that lifestyle. We have one in college, one going soon. We talk about coming out of state school almost debt free, vs loans for private schools. Majors and futures and what all of it means. I’m not all that happy with what DS1 has chosen, but he knows the risks. I hope the others choose more wisely. (I’m ignoring what they say now, as DS1 did a complete 180 in college.)

If your child is old enough to consider marriage, she’s old enough to hear all about it. And she’s old enough to make the decisions.
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ora_43




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Feb 17 2020, 12:46 pm
amother [ Jade ] wrote:
Oh boy are people naive. Wooohooo are people living in the clouds. Getting a job/ profession and top degree is no magic wand to a life in easy stret. Cool Cool

It's not a magic wand, but it's a LOT more financially secure than kollel, no?

In Israel, AFAIK even the worst-paying job pays more than the best-paying kollel.

And there are degrees that just about guarantee a job. (Dentistry, nursing, engineering, social work, teaching... Not always a great salary, but a decent job).
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amother




Jade
 

Post  Mon, Feb 17 2020, 12:54 pm
ora_43 wrote:

And there are degrees that just about guarantee a job. (Dentistry, nursing, engineering, social work, teaching... Not always a great salary, but a decent job).


Lol not exactly. This black and white kind of thinking is what I.mean Can't Believe It by naive.
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amother




Maroon
 

Post  Mon, Feb 17 2020, 1:31 pm
amother [ Jade ] wrote:
I don't know if that question was adrssed at me and I don't really want to go into details about my life here. It happens to be my dh was in a top school for a lucrative field ( medical , dental, law) the type of school that guarantees 100 percent job placement on graduation.

all that is besides the point.

My point was starting off married life in school and working is far from a bed of roses. Those who post " just have dh get a jo and support you" are the idealistic naive ones to me- not the letter writer quoted in the previous thread.

And I've seen and watched plenty of families both who started off working and In kollel

Oh boy are people naive. Wooohooo are people living in the clouds. Getting a job/ profession and top degree is no magic wand to a life in easy stret. Cool Cool
9
So basically what your saying is people who want to get a job and start married life working are naive because it isn't easy to work and support yourself ?
And it's way easier to just mooch off your parents and learn instead ?

This kind of thinking is incredibly immature.
Yes it's way easier to just get a support check from dad. But it also doesn't take your parents into consideration. Yes working and going to school isn't easy. But that is what mature responsible adults do.
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amother




Jade
 

Post  Mon, Feb 17 2020, 2:13 pm
amother [ Maroon ] wrote:
9
So basically what your saying is people who want to get a job and start married life working are naive because it isn't easy to work and support yourself ?
And it's way easier to just mooch off your parents and learn instead ?

This kind of thinking is incredibly immature.
Yes it's way easier to just get a support check from dad. But it also doesn't take your parents into consideration. Yes working and going to school isn't easy. But that is what mature responsible adults do.


No thats not what I'm saying at all
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ora_43




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Feb 17 2020, 2:26 pm
amother [ Jade ] wrote:
Lol not exactly. This black and white kind of thinking is what I.mean Can't Believe It by naive.

The head shaking is a bit much. I'm not exactly new to the working world, and neither are my friends. A lot of whom learned those professions specifically because of the nearly-guaranteed (and note, I did say nearly) employment.

I know teachers, therapists and social workers who want to leave their professions, but in exactly 0 cases is it because of a lack of jobs. Sick of the profession, yes, can't find work - I seriously have yet to hear of this happening to a single person.
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HonesttoGod




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Feb 17 2020, 3:25 pm
My husband was in kolel the first few months of our marriage and neither parent supported us. We had some wedding money and I worked. And then we realized we cannot survive this way so my husband went to work and that was that.

I don’t plan on supporting my kids either. Will I give them money if I can? Some $ for yt/gift/chanukah? I’d love to be able to but a gift of $100 or even $1000 is not the same as supporting and any child over 18 is independent enough to get married therefore independent enough to support themselves.
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mha3484




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Feb 17 2020, 3:52 pm
I am yeshivish but a BT who was not raised with the concept of support. I kind of feel like I am on the outside looking in. My relatives who have names on buildings still work. I feel the whole concept of parental support breeds entitlement and bad middos. Too many boys end up with an over inflated sense of self worth that is just gross. And we want to know why we have an aguna crisis. Our boys think the word owes them. Some boys will mature with age and drop the attitude but some wont and why take that chance?

I have 3 boys. If they want to start out their marriages in kollel that is great but they will need to find a wife with a good job who will support them. I am not raising them to over burden their in laws or marry someone with deep pockets.
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amother




Sienna
 

Post  Mon, Feb 17 2020, 4:18 pm
amother [ Wheat ] wrote:
This is only one side of the coin. Because it's an expectation that the "best boys" will stay in learning, the parents feel obligated to offer support. It's not that the parents are creating the craziness, it's the society that applies the pressure to give our kids the best. In the olden days, few people stayed in learning, only the very, very top. Those boys were usually taken by the wealthiest people in town and/or the rosh yeshiva. Your average shoemaker, tailor and milkman did not expect to get a son in law who would stay in learning. However, he was expected to provide a nice dowry for his daughter, along with bedding, clothes etc, otherwise she could never get married. That was a great hardship too.


This is more of a delusion. Is setting up your kids for a lifetime of hardships considered the best?

Also, how how many parents are deluding themselves about their children? How many of their children actually possess the capabilities and abilities to learn long term? So many of them are only doing it because of societal pressure. Remove the pressure & watch how many of them run to work.
So essentially the parents aren't considering what's best for their children, they're considering what's good for their reputation.
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polka dots




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Feb 17 2020, 4:30 pm
Life is not fair

Maybe at this point you are having it harder financially than your sister. But what happens when her husband wants to find a job? Will he be able to at that point sit into school for a few years or will he do a low paying job?

You might have less $$ in your account but you are quite a few steps ahead of having an income to hopefully live comfortably
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