Touching someone as they die

malki2

Sun, Mar 01 2020, 12:03 am

That is correct. It applies to someone who is in the status of goseis. (I’m not sure exactly what qualifies, but it is sometime just before they die). The reason is because by touching them, you might do something to hasten their death. I don’t see exactly why it is insensitive. I’ve been in the room with a relative as she died, and believe me, a person about to die is not exactly concerned about having someone hold their hand while their neshama goes to shomayim.

amother

Yellow

Sun, Mar 01 2020, 12:33 am

Painful to be touched? I guess I wouldn't know since I haven't experienced this of course, but I tend to think that if a person is G-d forbid dying and knows it they would not want to feel alone and would want something as simple as a hand held? Definitely never heard this before. Thankfully never had reason to need to know I guess.

amother

Blonde

Sun, Mar 01 2020, 12:51 am

amother [ Yellow ] wrote:

We're talking literal last moments. Hashem Yirachem.

amother

Black

Sun, Mar 01 2020, 1:43 am

amother [ Yellow ] wrote:

I've wondered this and thought like you. I would imagine that I was going through a really hard time I would definitely want someone to hold my hand.

I read a horrible, terrible story in a Jewish magazine last year about a sweet little boy who was very sick. There was nothing to do and they knew death was coming. He ended up dying at home. That night, they told his mother to stay in a different room so she shouldn't cry and make it harder for his neshama.

That broke my heart. I thought of my own boys R"L and imagined the worst. If I was that mother, I would have liked to hold that sweet child as long as I could.

But she did as she was told, for she was told that the neshama would be happiest that way.

I guess this is another thing we just can't understand, but yeah. It makes me sad and breaks my heart.

amother

Rose

Sun, Mar 01 2020, 2:55 am

When I was with my mother when she was very sick I learned many halachas. When they should resuscitate, when not....

I was with her when she passed away. And when I saw that her last moments are here I just hugged her and kissed her and cried on her told her what an amazing mom she is and how much I loved her.... later I heard that it’s not allowed because it’s like a candle that’s burning out and any little touch can make it stop burning and we shouldn’t hasten someone’s death.

I was devastated. Here I was with her and knew so many halachas and this I didn’t know. I was so upset that I would cause her to die sooner or that I caused her or her neshama more pain.

What made me feel better was that my mother was on a respiraobim almost sure Halacha doesn’t apply because by touching her I couldn’t have made her die sooner if she is anyway on machine...

rainbow baby

Sun, Mar 01 2020, 5:18 am

When I was with my father during his last minutes I actually felt like I couldnt touch him that actually he wasnt mine anymore. That feeling of he is no longer mine started a few hours before he died. Its a very wierd experience being with someone who is dying. Something you cant understand untill you have experienced it. Its very much the reverse of birth.

malki2

Sun, Mar 01 2020, 5:34 am

amother [ Black ] wrote:

Again, we are talking specifically about the stage of goseis. The person is no longer conscious at that point. He or she will not be aware that you are holding their hand.

Elfrida

Sun, Mar 01 2020, 6:16 am

There are medically recognizable signs when a person becomes goses. In Israel a nurse will often warn you not to touch any more.

The person is moving away from you. Depending on the cause of death, physical contact may be painful for the person. Even the effort of reacting to a minor touch can be more effort than the dying person is capable of.

During the process of dying, the family needs to begin to relate to the neshama as being more important than the body.

Every nurse and doctor who works in this kind of field can tell stories of how they had to send the family out to let a person die. For the family it is hard to let go.... but the neshama needs to move on. They can make an effort to stay for their family, but sometimes the family need to let go.

FranticFrummie

Sun, Mar 01 2020, 6:31 am

We all know the feeling of being hugged. It makes you feel more present and more secure.

By touching someone, you are anchoring the neshama to this world. The person may feel that they don't want to go because you are holding them down, and they love you so much. By not touching, you leave them free to commune directly with Hashem. It's an extremely personal time for the dying one.

I have a friend who has a therapy dog who is trained in end of life hospice. She takes her dog to hospitals and nursing homes, and the dog lies down next to the person. If the person wants to put their fingertips in the dog's fur for comfort, then that is OK. She sits shomeret with the dying person until hospital staff can come and take over.

(She's visited ill people with the dog several times beforehand, so when the time comes it's not the first time they've been exposed to the dog.) Often the patients express the wish that the dog be present at the end, so the facility calls her to come over when the time has come. She's on call like Hatzolah that way. It's a huge mitzva that she feels very passionate about.

amother

Blonde

Sun, Mar 01 2020, 8:45 am

FranticFrummie wrote:

I think what shes doing is amazing.

I just want to point out that the time of going from one world to the next is a very holy one and most people would not want something tama like a dog in the room.

groisamomma

Sun, Mar 01 2020, 12:11 pm

amother [ Blonde ] wrote:

I would hardly describe it as amazing. Maybe for non-Jews. This is just another time when humans pat themselves on the back for a good deed when in fact it is causing tza'ar to the neshama at the holiest time. Entirely self-satisfying.

OP, it's easy for your heart to break because you have to rely on your imagination to experience it. When you've BTDT you're above the pettiness and the me, me, me of how you feel and you're able to put the dying person and their neshama ahead of your physical needs. Speaking from experience, unfortunately.

FranticFrummie

Sun, Mar 01 2020, 12:41 pm

groisamomma wrote:

Wow. Harsh much?

1. For some, a dog brings back fond childhood memories and provides comfort.
2. The dog only visits at the patient's request.
3. My friend has rabbinical approval. It's a frum nursing home, and the rabbi in charge is a kohen. He knows what he is doing.

amother

Ecru

Sun, Mar 01 2020, 1:26 pm

Quote:

I tend to think that if a person is G-d forbid dying and knows it they would not want to feel alone and would want something as simple as a hand held?

They are alone as they prepare to enter the Beit Din Shel Ma'alah, and a physical gesture like holding hands only emphasizes the gap between the physical world that they are preparing to leave and the Olam HaEmet ahead of them.

A physical gesture is less relevent, but the true support you can give at that stage is spiritual - saying vidui and Shema with/for them, and davening. That will aid the neshama to be supported on its journey.

Its being focused on their true needs rather than what we think would be nice.

amother

Bisque

Sun, Mar 01 2020, 2:42 pm

amother [ Black ] wrote:

Yes the neshama has pain if it sees the survivors crying and mourning a lot

amother

Bisque

Sun, Mar 01 2020, 2:44 pm

Elfrida wrote:

That’s why lots,of,times the dying person waits until the family member leaves and then they die. My sibling and I sat with my father most of the day and soon after we left we got the call. It was shocking. I believe he waited till we left

amother

Bisque

Sun, Mar 01 2020, 2:45 pm

Elfrida wrote:

It’s hard to understand because how does the body have control of not dying while the family is there?

Elfrida

Sun, Mar 01 2020, 3:40 pm

amother [ Bisque ] wrote:

It’s hard to understand because how does the body have control of not dying while the family is there?

I honestly don't know. Though I think it may be the neshama that finds some ko'ach to remain rather than it just being the body. It is known that the mind/spirit can control physical reactions. Under the right circumstances, I'm sure the neshama can control the body. Especially close to death when the body gets weaker and the neshama gets stronger.

I saw it with my mother. It took about three days for the entire family to arrive. (We were coming from two continents, and things got complicated with times zones, Shabbos, and an emergency passport for a month old baby who couldn't be left.) Throughout those three days she maintained a stable condition, just in this world. Within hours of the last sibling arriving she started to deteriorate. We had to leave, with one sibling planning to sleep there - within an hour of leaving the hospital we were called to come back. We always felt that she had waited for us all to get there, then waited for us to leave to give her the quietude to finally depart.

That's my own story, but I have heard so many similar ones, both from friends and professionals. (As a community nurse I don't deal with this, but I have friends who do.)

The neshama has a strong connection to the family. I think it may be hard for it to leave, knowing it will cause pain to those who are left. Perhaps it needs that distance to do what it has to do.

Really I don't know the answer. Maybe someone else here knows more than me. Maybe we are not meant to.