Touching someone as they die

Elfrida

Sun, Mar 01 2020, 1:17 pm

Quote:

But, every neshama leaves at the exact minute it's meant to, just as every neshama comes into this world at the exact moment it is meant to. Not sure how to reconcile that with the neshama waiting to leave?

Hashgacha pratit, controlling all the details to an extent beyond our understanding. And the intersection of free will with Divine planning.

HKB'H set the date for my mother's petirah at 2:00pm on 23rd Sivan (it wasn't, but for example). We didn't know that in advance, and nor did she. She knew that she was using whatever she had to wait for my sister. Who had all the 'coincidences' allowing her to get a passport for the baby within a few hours, and get on a flight the next day.... Its part of the huge pattern that we don't understand.

It is summed up well in Pirkei Avot 3;15
הכל צפוי והרשות נתונה
Everything is foreseen, yet free choice is given.

Elfrida

Sun, Mar 01 2020, 2:00 pm

Um. Looking through it, I seem to have rather taken over this thread. I didn't mean to. I'm not an authority on this subject. I've thought about it, and looked up sources and developed views on it, but there is nothing to say that my views are any more valid or important than anyone else's.

amother

Goldenrod

Sun, Mar 01 2020, 6:17 pm

It is true that you can't touch a person who has the status of goseis but please consult a rov before you assume the person has that status.
I called my rov when a family member was dying and described what was happening. He said she was not considered a goseis at that time.

amother

Saddlebrown

Sun, Mar 01 2020, 8:29 pm

I think I understand...I always thought I wanted a doula, until I experienced natural childbirth. I found the experience of someone talking to me and rubbing me to be a distraction from the deep meditative state I needed to be in to allow my body to open up and give birth. In fact, the touch and mental distraction were actually painful - they caused me to feel the contractions and opening of my pelvis as painful, but if I was left alone to focus and meditate, the contractions felt like waves that were appropriate to the inner work of birth. I experienced a deep need for safety and privacy to let go and birth, and I can only imagine that a person needs safety (feeling their body is secure, won't be touched or moved, that their relatives are happy and ok) and privacy (no touch or talking or any other distraction) to let go and die, which is essentially the birth of the soul into the Next World. Birth and Death are One.

rainbow baby

Mon, Mar 02 2020, 11:06 am

Just reading the replies since I last replied. Before my father passed he was quite distressed he wasnt in this world anymore it was a very spiritual experience. But at some stage probably an hour or so before he went, I told him its ok to go we will all be fine. Straight away after that he seemed to calm and just look like he was asleep.

Chayalle

Mon, Mar 02 2020, 11:24 am

When my MIL A"H was in the hospital during her final illness, we had family members with her taking shifts around the clock to be with her.

The morning that she passed away, my BIL was with her and she told him that he should go to Shacharis already. He told her he will go soon, other BIL is coming....she insisted no, she's fine, he should go already. So he went.

During the 15 minutes between when he went and next BIL arrived, she passed away.

The nurses in the hospital told us that they see this all the time. They said she wanted privacy, or her Neshama did. She wanted to go when we weren't there.

It was comforting to us, because we had all tried so hard. I used to take shifts at night, so I wouldn't be away from my kids....all of us pitched in around the clock, but this is what she wanted.

Lends a different perspective - it's not always the way we see it.

lech lecha08

Tue, Mar 03 2020, 12:29 pm

Chayalle wrote:

When my MIL was nearing the end, she was in home hospice. DH, SIL, and FIL were all with her. they stepped out of the room for a few minutes to discuss who was going to go to the pharmacy for something and she passed just in those few minutes