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Forum -> Children's Health -> Vaccinations
Hpv gardasil: sakanos nefashos
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amother
Periwinkle


 

Post Sun, Mar 01 2020, 7:49 pm
After seeing many of these threads, I just want to weigh in (with what will probably be an unpopular opinion) that I feel anti-vaxxers are m’ketanei emunah. At the end of the day, although we are responsible to do our hishtadlus - health comes from Hashem!!! We are only responsible to do our hishtadlus. This means following the accepted medical advice of the day - which in our age includes vaccination. We do not need to track down every possible conspiracy theory and/or every possible bad outcome, as we are not in control of the outcome. That is in the hands of Hashem!!! We are only in control of our hishtadlus, and then we daven to HaShem for good results.

If we are following the prevailing medical advice of the day which again, includes vaccinations (and car seats, etc.) then we should have emunah that HaShem will take care of the rest.
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amother
Chartreuse


 

Post Sun, Mar 01 2020, 8:56 pm
amother [ Periwinkle ] wrote:
After seeing many of these threads, I just want to weigh in (with what will probably be an unpopular opinion) that I feel anti-vaxxers are m’ketanei emunah. At the end of the day, although we are responsible to do our hishtadlus - health comes from Hashem!!! We are only responsible to do our hishtadlus. This means following the accepted medical advice of the day - which in our age includes vaccination. We do not need to track down every possible conspiracy theory and/or every possible bad outcome, as we are not in control of the outcome. That is in the hands of Hashem!!! We are only in control of our hishtadlus, and then we daven to HaShem for good results.

If we are following the prevailing medical advice of the day which again, includes vaccinations (and car seats, etc.) then we should have emunah that HaShem will take care of the rest.


I hate when people bring Hashem and emunah into these conversations because it's so easy to flip the switch on this one. The conversation on this never goes anywhere.

Here goes:
I feel pro-vaxxers are m'ketanei emunah. At the end of the day, although we are responsible to do our hishtadlus - health comes from Hashem!!! We are only responsible to do our hishtadlus. This does not mean following medical advice blindly (much of which is motivated by money and not public health) and does not include injecting foreign matter which carries the risk of death, according to the very manufacturers of the product. We do not need follow Big Pharma blindly (sometimes against an individual doctor's recommendation) and sacrifice our children on the altar of public health. We do not need to fear the 14 diseases we have vaccines for, as there are many deadly diseases out there and Hashem can always create new strains and new diseases, as we are not in control of the outcome. (Exhibit A: Coronavirus) That is in the hands of Hashem, and Big Pharma or CDC cannot save us!!! We are only in control of guarding our health and doing our hishtadlus (whatever that means for each individual), and then daven to Hashem for good results.


I will not respond to any further discussion on this angle of the vaccine topic because there are informed rabbanim on both sides, and everyone can twist religion to suit their agenda. I'd rather argue logic and fact.
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dancingqueen




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Mar 01 2020, 9:02 pm
amother [ Chartreuse ] wrote:
Are you seriously worried about Cook's petty cash when there are way more than these 3 Pharma giants who are pocketing oodles of money?

Who's in it for the money?


They make money innovating and creating products that save lives. Anti-vaxxer sites and demagogues make money off preying on your fears.
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amother
Chartreuse


 

Post Sun, Mar 01 2020, 9:08 pm
dancingqueen wrote:
They make money innovating and creating products that save lives.

That's what they're telling you they do while they keep manipulating data and media so that you continue to believe them, and you have a right to believe them. However, as an example, I'm old enough to not fall for the chickenpox is dangerous narrative.
dancingqueen wrote:
Anti-vaxxer sites and demagogues make money off preying on your fears.
They too believe they are saving lives. Especially that they are disproportionately privvy to incidences of vaccine injury and death.
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amother
Vermilion


 

Post Sun, Mar 01 2020, 9:42 pm
amother [ Periwinkle ] wrote:
After seeing many of these threads, I just want to weigh in (with what will probably be an unpopular opinion) that I feel anti-vaxxers are m’ketanei emunah. At the end of the day, although we are responsible to do our hishtadlus - health comes from Hashem!!! We are only responsible to do our hishtadlus. This means following the accepted medical advice of the day - which in our age includes vaccination. We do not need to track down every possible conspiracy theory and/or every possible bad outcome, as we are not in control of the outcome. That is in the hands of Hashem!!! We are only in control of our hishtadlus, and then we daven to HaShem for good results.

If we are following the prevailing medical advice of the day which again, includes vaccinations (and car seats, etc.) then we should have emunah that HaShem will take care of the rest.


There is exactly such a concept: shomer pisaim Hashem. We are supposed to trust in Hashem by following the accepted medical wisdom of the time, though of course we know things can always change.
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amother
Apricot


 

Post Sun, Mar 01 2020, 10:12 pm
amother [ Vermilion ] wrote:
There is exactly such a concept: shomer pisaim Hashem. We are supposed to trust in Hashem by following the accepted medical wisdom of the time, though of course we know things can always change.

Who is the plural 'we'? Who decides what is accepted? Who decided that trusting in Hashem translates into blind trust in the US medical system? Who decides what constitutes medical? Where does the line between prevention and medical assistance lie (there are differing opinions in halacha)?
Your blanket statement is too much of a useless blanket and lacks substance.
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amother
Vermilion


 

Post Sun, Mar 01 2020, 10:44 pm
amother [ Apricot ] wrote:
Who is the plural 'we'? Who decides what is accepted? Who decided that trusting in Hashem translates into blind trust in the US medical system? Who decides what constitutes medical? Where does the line between prevention and medical assistance lie (there are differing opinions in halacha)?
Your blanket statement is too much of a useless blanket and lacks substance.


Do you really disagree with the premise that the mainstream medical world thinks vaccinations are the best and safest option? By medical I mean most doctors and large health organizations. While there are some dissenters, I would say the vast majority of medical professionals tell you to vaccinate.

I heard this halachic concept applied to vaccinations b’shem R’ Elyashiv z”tzal.
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amother
Chartreuse


 

Post Sun, Mar 01 2020, 10:58 pm
amother [ Vermilion ] wrote:
Do you really disagree with the premise that the mainstream medical world thinks vaccinations are the best and safest option? By medical I mean most doctors and large health organizations. While there are some dissenters, I would say the vast majority of medical professionals tell you to vaccinate.

I heard this halachic concept applied to vaccinations b’shem R’ Elyashiv z”tzal.

Not for HPV. Not at all. Which is what this thread is about. And if they're pushing that, I am wary of every other product they offer and look into it from all ends. Decide on each one individually and according to where I live and what the situation is at that point in time, for example, an outbreak or not.

If you understand how the medical system works today, you know that most doctors do what they need to do to retain their license whether they personally agree or not.
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amother
Hotpink


 

Post Sun, Mar 01 2020, 11:07 pm
There are posters on here who say their suffering could have been prevented by the shot.
Gave me what to think about it. I don’t give it. But these ooor women could have prevented their suffering. I’m torn in the issue for now.
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amother
Floralwhite


 

Post Sun, Mar 01 2020, 11:11 pm
amother [ Hotpink ] wrote:
There are posters on here who say their suffering could have been prevented by the shot.
Gave me what to think about it. I don’t give it. But these ooor women could have prevented their suffering. I’m torn in the issue for now.


please explain.
I vaxx everything except guardasil.
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amother
Chartreuse


 

Post Sun, Mar 01 2020, 11:20 pm
amother [ Hotpink ] wrote:
There are posters on here who say their suffering could have been prevented by the shot.
Gave me what to think about it. I don’t give it. But these ooor women could have prevented their suffering. I’m torn in the issue for now.

They don't know that it could have been prevented, and if they say that, you should know they are not G-d but they think they are and be very wary of whatever else they say. Because there are many many many women who have suffered from the shot itself who probably statistically speaking would never have gotten HPV. Girls who stopped menstruating after the shot. A 12 year old who got cervical cancer after getting the shot. Women who started suffering from autoimmune disorders after getting the shot, and plenty of young teens who were healthy until their bodies shut down after getting Gardasil and then they died. But if you hear these stories as opposed to those stories , you will be deemed an anti-vaxxer , so watch out.
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amother
Hotpink


 

Post Mon, Mar 02 2020, 12:09 am
amother [ Floralwhite ] wrote:
please explain.
I vaxx everything except guardasil.


Same here.
Some posts I bookmarked.

https://www.imamother.com/foru.....95295

https://www.imamother.com/foru.....52018

https://www.imamother.com/foru.....49268

https://www.imamother.com/foru.....91258

No one wants to be the one not to give the shot and then cause heartache later on.
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amother
Hotpink


 

Post Mon, Mar 02 2020, 12:12 am
amother [ Chartreuse ] wrote:
They don't know that it could have been prevented, and if they say that, you should know they are not G-d but they think they are and be very wary of whatever else they say. Because there are many many many women who have suffered from the shot itself who probably statistically speaking would never have gotten HPV. Girls who stopped menstruating after the shot. A 12 year old who got cervical cancer after getting the shot. Women who started suffering from autoimmune disorders after getting the shot, and plenty of young teens who were healthy until their bodies shut down after getting Gardasil and then they died. But if you hear these stories as opposed to those stories , you will be deemed an anti-vaxxer , so watch out.

You know all these women personally?
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amother
Apricot


 

Post Mon, Mar 02 2020, 12:18 am
amother [ Hotpink ] wrote:
Same here.


No one wants to be the one not to give the shot and then cause heartache later on.

I don't want to be the one to give the shot and cause heartache right now.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 02 2020, 12:28 am
This is the problem with one size fits all health care. Some girls are going to be exposed to HPV in their early teens and some girls will never be exposed.
We do live in times, however, where the outside world affects our world so we have to decide what risk to take.
Maybe someday, a computer program will calculate the risk verses benefit ratio for every medical intervention.
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amother
Slateblue


 

Post Mon, Mar 02 2020, 12:44 am
amother [ Vermilion ] wrote:
Do you really disagree with the premise that the mainstream medical world thinks vaccinations are the best and safest option? By medical I mean most doctors and large health organizations. While there are some dissenters, I would say the vast majority of medical professionals tell you to vaccinate.

I heard this halachic concept applied to vaccinations b’shem R’ Elyashiv z”tzal.

Please be careful before mentioning gedolim, I only believe when I see a handwritten signature.
Also the idea you’re mentioning is true when you’re NOT SURE about something, then you look around at what others are doing and may decide to follow the majority, which may be a smart decision.
When you are SURE about something you don’t go by majority.
Otherwise you can take off your wig.
Most of the world doesn’t wear one.
But If you know and are Sure that Judaism is true, and that is your unshakable belief then you don’t go by and don’t care about the ‘majority’.

Btw when I was in elementary school I was the Only one who brought whole wheat bread for lunch, I used to get mocked for my “yucky” lunch that came along with a water bottle while everyone else had white bread, daily, with coke, sprite or juice.
Today the school my girls go to serves only whole wheat. (Besides for the day they serve falafel when they provide both options).
There’s much more awareness.
I wonder if that will happen with vaccines one day.
Disclaimer: But if Rav Elyashiv zatzal held differently (which I don’t know until I see a signed letter with his handwritten signature, because anyone can throw out any name anytime on purpose or by mistake) then I take it all back, and of course would advise anyone to go by what the gadol said.
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amother
Hotpink


 

Post Mon, Mar 02 2020, 1:05 am
amother [ Apricot ] wrote:
I don't want to be the one to give the shot and cause heartache right now.


Or follow mass hysteria.

For me - it’s funny - posts like this have the opposite affect.
It’s written in such a way to insight mass hysteria it kind of makes me feel like the points against the vax are just real hysteria.
It’s like science vs hysteria. Which do I believe. And in which direction do I take a risk with my child’s health.

Like you write about young women’s bodies shutting down suddenly immediately after getting the shot and dying. How many young women did this happen to? I’d imagine if it was happening as often and as immediate as you make it sound it would be all over the news. It’s scary it has happened to so many women in your community. That must be traumatic.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 02 2020, 1:06 am
amother [ Slateblue ] wrote:
Please be careful before mentioning gedolim, I only believe when I see a handwritten signature.
Also the idea you’re mentioning is true when you’re NOT SURE about something, then you look around at what others are doing and may decide to follow the majority, which may be a smart decision.
When you are SURE about something you don’t go by majority.
Otherwise you can take off your wig.
Most of the world doesn’t wear one.
But If you know and are Sure that Judaism is true, and that is your unshakable belief then you don’t go by and don’t care about the ‘majority’.

Btw when I was in elementary school I was the Only one who brought whole wheat bread for lunch, I used to get mocked for my “yucky” lunch that came along with a water bottle while everyone else had white bread, daily, with coke, sprite or juice.
Today the school my girls go to serves only whole wheat. (Besides for the day they serve falafel when they provide both options).
There’s much more awareness.
I wonder if that will happen with vaccines one day.
Disclaimer: But if Rav Elyashiv zatzal held differently (which I don’t know until I see a signed letter with his handwritten signature, because anyone can throw out any name anytime on purpose or by mistake) then I take it all back, and of course would advise anyone to go by what the gadol said.


I think that some populations are more at risk for some diseases than others are. Children in Samoa died of measles while children in America did not, although some got very sick.
I think that someday, vaccines will be targeted for groups most likely to benefit from whatever risk is involved in getting the vaccine.
For example, Hepatitis A spreads more rapidly in crowded living conditions than in sparce populations.
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amother
Slateblue


 

Post Mon, Mar 02 2020, 1:10 am
amother [ Hotpink ] wrote:
Or follow mass hysteria.

For me - it’s funny - posts like this have the opposite affect.
It’s written in such a way to insight mass hysteria it kind of makes me feel like the points against the vax are just real hysteria.
It’s like science vs hysteria. Which do I believe. And in which direction do I take a risk with my child’s health.

Or it’s like everyone just following everyone else
Vs.
Thinking for yourself, asking educated questions and making an informed decision based on your knowledge and conscience and your daas Torah.
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amother
Hotpink


 

Post Mon, Mar 02 2020, 1:12 am
amother [ Slateblue ] wrote:
Or it’s like everyone just following everyone else
Vs.
Thinking for yourself, asking educated questions and making an informed decision based on your knowledge and conscience and your daas Torah.


How can I have more knowledge then my child’s peditrician or leading scientists unless I get a PhD in medicine?
Google doesn’t give that knowledge.
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