Hpv gardasil: sakanos nefashos

amother

Apricot

Mon, Mar 02 2020, 1:14 am

amother [ Slateblue ] wrote:

Please be careful before mentioning gedolim, I only believe when I see a handwritten signature.

Disclaimer: But if Rav Elyashiv zatzal held differently (which I don’t know until I see a signed letter with his handwritten signature, because anyone can throw out any name anytime on purpose or by mistake) then I take it all back, and of course would advise anyone to go by what the gadol said.

Oh no! Only believe what you hear when you present a shayla that is pertinent to you.
You never know what is true and what isn't, including signatures.
Should I start bringing the many gedolim who told us to disregard medical doctors advice?
Of course I wouldnt do that. It would be dangerous. Every case is different.
Similar is for the shayla uteshuva from Rav Elyashiv.
IIRC it was asked about a specific time and place for a specific vaccine for a specific family.

amother

Slateblue

Mon, Mar 02 2020, 1:20 am

amother [ Apricot ] wrote:

Of course.
It’s a known fact that shailas need to be asked individually.
And we asked individually.
(The answer we got is irrelevant because as we said, everyone should ask individually).
I just wanted to be clear in the previous post that I’m not writing in connection to anything regarding daas Torah.

amother

Blush

Mon, Mar 02 2020, 4:58 am

amother [ Slateblue ] wrote:

Or it’s like everyone just following everyone else
Vs.
Thinking for yourself, asking educated questions and making an informed decision based on your knowledge and conscience and your daas Torah.

For some people "just following everyone else" means not vaccinating.
Many people, especially mothers, are caught up in the push to be as natural and gentle as possible, and it's a kind of contest, who can be the crunchiest.
Who can feed their kid organic, homemade, healthy food
Who can EBF, and BF longest, avoiding formula
Who can keep their kids healthiest without ever visiting the doctor
Who can give their kids as many well-rounded activities as possible
Who can attachment parent, and gentle parent, and not punish, and only give natural consequences
Who can avoid letting their kids eat junk food
Who can be a patient parent and get everything done without turning to screens
Who can have the most natural and gentle birth
In frum circles this includes who can have the most kids
With the husband who learns longest in kollel

So for this group, which is only growing larger, not vaccinating is part and parcel of what it means to be a good mom and be accepted.

And those who think for themselves and realize that crunchy does not mean you're mom of the year, are the ones who vax.

My point is, of course, that going against the stream can go either way, depending on community.

Like the Gur chassid in Israel who went to medical school, he went against the grain, he did his own thinking. But if he were an only child of secular Russian parents, or Chinese parents, or even one of three children born to American Modern Orthodox parents, then he would have been following society's expectations of him by going to medical school (or becoming a lawyer). We see him as great and a thinker and brave etc. because he went against what is expected in his sector of society.

As an aside when it comes to medical decisions the best bet is to go by the scientific and medical community's consensus. But if you're not going to do that, then at least be consistent: Don't claim there is a conspiracy to make you ill and then run to them every time you get sick, asking them to make you healthy.

amother

Chartreuse

Mon, Mar 02 2020, 7:46 am

amother [ Blush ] wrote:

Your stereotype is actually funny. LOL
Many of us were doing all of this way before it was in style, like think 40 years ago.
In frum circles this does not include having the most kids. At all. Nor kollel. If you'd know me and my family, you too would find this hysterical.

Those who think for themselves are the ones who vax??? Say that again? That's really funny. Or they're the ones who obey their doctor "because if he does it, he must have a good reason" (and I'm quoting from my very pro-vax family member). Your last paragraph actually agrees with me that one should just trust medical community as that's the easiest and safest most mainstream route.

So if I don't want to take risky preventative measures, I should not go to the doctor when I'm sick? What do you believe doctors' jobs to be? Hint: they're not well visits.

amother

Blush

Mon, Mar 02 2020, 7:50 am

amother [ Chartreuse ] wrote:

Your stereotype is actually funny. LOL
Many of us were doing all of this way before it was in style, like think 40 years ago.
In frum circles this does not include having the most kids. At all. Nor kollel. If you'd know me and my family, you too would find this hysterical.

Those who think for themselves are the ones who vax??? Say that again? That's really funny. Or they're the ones who obey their doctor "because if he does it, he must have a good reason" (and I'm quoting from my very pro-vax family member). Your last paragraph actually agrees with me that one should just trust medical community is the easiest and safest most mainstream route.

So if I don't want to take risky preventative measures, I should not go to the doctor when I'm sick? What do you believe doctors' jobs to be? Hint: they're not well visits.

Forty years ago there were very few who chose not to vax. And 40 years ago things were very different, anyways, in terms of what science knew.

I didn't say that across the board the only ones who think for themselves vax. I said that it depends on community. In some communities the push is to vax. In others the push is not to vax. Thinking for yourself might mean going against what the community you're in does, but it's important to remember that just because it goes against the grain in your community doesn't mean that it goes against the grain in every community. There are whole communities that tell their followers not to vax.

I'm saying that neither side is automatically "thinking for yourself," that's all.

And that if you truly believe all doctors are brainwashed by Big Pharma, then you should be consistent.

amother

Chartreuse

Mon, Mar 02 2020, 8:46 am

amother [ Blush ] wrote:

Meet me

I don't know any such communities, but it would make life easier for me if I would. Care to name them?

I don't think doctors are all brainwashed by Big Pharma. I think in this particular field, they are not entitled to their own opinion. (I have a strong suspicion that he doesn't vax his own kids, or at least selectively vaxes them, but of course he won't ever tell me outright.) There are very few other medical situations where I feel that my doctor is giving me across-the-board advice, for the greater good, etc., as opposed to individually tailored advice for the benefit of this particular child in front of him. I'm not one to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

amother

Blush

Mon, Mar 02 2020, 8:51 am

amother [ Chartreuse ] wrote:

Meet me

You sound like my mother.

And all I'm saying is that the middle-of-the-road approach you take is not the one taken by today's hard-core crunchies and anti-vaxxers.

Here's another question for you. If your child was showing signs of measles, would you quarantine him and keep him home? Or would you take him to preschool and the mall because "it's no big deal" or you're doing "a favor" to everyone else by letting them gain antibodies naturally?

amother

Mon, Mar 02 2020, 9:09 am

amother [ Hotpink ] wrote:

How can I have more knowledge then my child’s peditrician or leading scientists unless I get a PhD in medicine?
Google doesn’t give that knowledge.

You're kidding right?
Your family doctor who treated you when you were a baby, sat through one hour vaccine lecture 40 years ago.
Google hosts scholarly and scientific articles, I dont even understand this rebuttal. Googling doesn't mean reading blog posts. It means searching for information. Would it sound better if someone said they read encyclopedias and medical journals in the library instead of just googling it? Lol

amother

Chartreuse

Mon, Mar 02 2020, 9:12 am

amother [ Blush ] wrote:

Of course I'd keep home. What's the question?

Remind me how this is related to trusting the medical establishment regarding the HPV vaccine?

amother

Lemon

Mon, Mar 02 2020, 9:12 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Docs who gives vaccinations have more education than one hour of a lecture 40 years ago.

#BestBubby

Mon, Mar 02 2020, 9:28 am

dancingqueen wrote:

They make money innovating and creating products that save lives. Anti-vaxxer sites and demagogues make money off preying on your fears.

The whole vaccine program is based on whipping up public hysteria against infections that
were considered benign like measles, mumps, chicken pox, etc. And Pharmaceutical Industry makes Billions off Vaccines which they bribed government to make MANDATED (coerced) on
everyone. Plus Pharmaceutical Industry cannot be sued for deaths and injuries caused by
vaccines.

I find it hysterical when people claim it is the anti-vaxers who are in it for the money $$$

amother

Lemon

Mon, Mar 02 2020, 9:34 am

#BestBubby wrote:

What's the purpose of the Excise tax that the Pharmaceutical Industry pays?

Ema of 5

Mon, Mar 02 2020, 9:38 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Actually, yes it would. Medical knowledge is very different than some random website most likely pushing an agenda, either pro or anti.
Where I live, there’s no option to selectively vax, it’s all or nothing. There’s also no religious exemption, but even if there was I don’t believe it is against my religion to vaccinate. Therefore, I speak to my doc before each vaccine, only give one at a time, and speak to my medical professional friends and family regarding each vaccine. My research does not consist of articles and journals, because, due to learning disabilities, I don’t understand them. Your research is no better or worse than mine. We both did our own research, and decided what was best for our families.

amother

Orange

Mon, Mar 02 2020, 9:47 am

amother [ Blush ] wrote:

This is so cool! Where on earth is the community where this is the norm??

small bean

Mon, Mar 02 2020, 10:06 am

If your premise is that you can prevent your son from marrying a girl with fertility issues that is extremely pathetic as most women who havw fertility issues don't know in advance and it is not caused by a vaccine.

While I have not given my children the shot. I would not want my child marrying into a family where the parents think they can control outcomes. Unfortunately, I won't know that either and I just pray that whomever my children marry, they will be able to create a beutiful relationship with their inlaws, no matter how irrational they are.

amother

Chartreuse

Mon, Mar 02 2020, 11:16 am

small bean wrote:

I agree with you.

If I could choose, I would love to have my kids marry into families who don't give the HPV and are understanding of those who don't vaccinate, selectively vaccinate, or in any other way aren't mainstream. I hate the ideology that usually comes along with being strong pro-vax which is extreme conformism about peer pressure ("What will everyone say?" and "How will you do a shidduch?"), often to the detriment of individual people.

But, bottom line, I don't believe I will have much say either way. Realistically I daven and hope for my children to marry spouses who are emotionally healthy whom they will bond with and come to mutual decisions about how to raise their children.

small bean

Mon, Mar 02 2020, 11:34 am

amother [ Chartreuse ] wrote:

I didn't say anything about vaccination in my post except that I don't give this shot.

I beleive in you are old enough to get married, make your own decisions.

My children will likely vaccinate because I strongly beleive in it and I show them studies. We discuss it all the time. This specific shot is not on the market long enough for me to be comfortable with it. I seriously don't care if my future inlaws got the shot. I think in the list of priorities, it doesn't even make the list.