Our relationship with Hashem seems abusive.

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amother

Orchid

Sun, Mar 01 2020, 1:39 pm

amother [ Cerise ] wrote:

What's that even supposed to mean? You really think that you don't have bechirah?

I choose everything except what I believe. I believe what seems true to me, and I don't control that.

Quote:

So obviously you CHOSE not to believe in the concept of G-d and bechirah. You made that choice.

No, I believe in Hashem, but I didn't choose to. I also didn't choose not to believe that I can choose what to believe. I simply don't have the ability to decide to believe in something, or not to believe something.

Quote:

And I was under the impression that only frum people are allowed on this site. Sorry to hear that it isn't so.

That accusation is illogical and inappropriate. What do you expect to accomplish by calling me not frum?

malki2

Sun, Mar 01 2020, 1:40 pm

amother [ Jade ] wrote:

I've seen posts from this "Thank You Hashem" campaign before and there are people in my community who are very into the whole thing - honestly I feel like it's just a commercialization of Hashem. I find the whole thing offputting and completely not what emunah should be based on.
They're oversimplifying something that is not simple to understand

You are probably right about that. Most of us were just responding to the OP who referred to Hashem as “abusive”.

flowerpower

Sun, Mar 01 2020, 1:44 pm

It’s meant to work on your emunah. You thank hashem for everything he does for you using specific examples and you also believe that what he does is truly for the good.

GreenEyes26

Sun, Mar 01 2020, 1:46 pm

amother [ Cerise ] wrote:

What's that even supposed to mean? You really think that you don't have bechirah?

So obviously you CHOSE not to believe in the concept of G-d and bechirah. You made that choice.

And I was under the impression that only frum people are allowed on this site. Sorry to hear that it isn't so.

And this is a perfect example of why people are pushed away from Orthodoxy - because they’re lambasted and shamed for expressing their doubts.

Are you so shaky in your own belief that you feel the need to speak to someone like that?

amother

Cerise

Sun, Mar 01 2020, 1:46 pm

GreenEyes26 wrote:

So go.

amother

Blush

Sun, Mar 01 2020, 1:51 pm

GreenEyes26 wrote:

😶. I have a lot what to say but it will get reported so I will keep quiet.

amother

Cerise

Sun, Mar 01 2020, 1:56 pm

amother [ Orchid ] wrote:

That accusation is illogical and inappropriate. What do you expect to accomplish by calling me not frum?

I have no idea if you are frum or not, and I'll believe you if you say you are.

I'm just confused, and perhaps you can clarify your statement a bit more. One of the basics of Judaism is that we have a choice to believe. If you are saying that it's not a choice then I'm not sure what you're trying to say? Can you please clarify what you meant as I am confused.

sushilover

Sun, Mar 01 2020, 1:57 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I've been following this group on Instagram called "thank you hashem". It's pretty popular and has over 15k followers. Most of the posts are thanking hashem for causing a problem that could have been worse, or causing a problem that was ultimately resolved. The last 3 posts were from people who slipped on black ice seemingly without much damage, misplaced her wallet with her license and passport in it and found it, and from someone who got a big splinter that was ultimately taken out.

Isn't this exactly what an abusive relationship is like? If my husband would smack me and tell me that normally I would get 3 smacks but today I'm only getting 1 smack, would I say wow, what a great guy, thank you? True it could always be worse, but if I'm being honest, why did hashem cause the pain in the first place? We obviously don't know, but to thank hashem seems silly. Logically we really shouldn't thank hashem if we wouldn't want it to happen again. Since we obviously wouldn't want it to happen again, our "thank you" is not really sincere.

Is this an emotional question or a logical question?
It feels emotional, and emotionally driven questions can never be answered by logic, hashkafa, or seforim.

amother

Sun, Mar 01 2020, 2:05 pm

amother [ Cerise ] wrote:

We can't fully believe something that contradicts our own logic or senses. Would it be possible for you to believe right now that the sky is green and it's 90 degrees and snowing outside?
I think people have trained themselves to believe certain things about hashem because:
A. They've been taught these things since a very young age.
B. It's easier to deal with lifes stresses if I for example believe I deserve it or it's somehow for my benefit.
In truth it doesn't make any logical sense why hashem allowed and arranged for a child to get molested.

amother

Cerise

Sun, Mar 01 2020, 2:16 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

So you have very deep questions and in all honesty this kind of forum is not exactly the place to find answers. Many people recommend different contemporary speakers, and if they work for you great, but I personally have found more answers reading primary sources. Learning chumash with meforshim, learning Gemarah inside, learning medrash inside, sefer Iyov with meforshim, later nach, etc etc etc. If you are a really deep person then this is probably the right place for you rather than popular contemporary sources.

amother

Orchid

Sun, Mar 01 2020, 2:18 pm

Cerise, after you responded with hostility, I can't make myself believe that you are sincere now.

sequoia

Sun, Mar 01 2020, 2:21 pm

Ok

But don’t call good evil or evil good.

Child rape is evil.

Genocide.

Abuse.

Newborn orphans.

Kids languishing in orphanages, their potential undiscovered, fit only for a life of crime.

Cancer, cardiovascular illness, stroke.

If you want to say we don’t understand, fine, but don’t say that everything is ultimately for our good. A seven year old boy violently sodomized by an adult man isn’t somehow “good.”

amother

Cerise

Sun, Mar 01 2020, 2:22 pm

amother [ Orchid ] wrote:

Cerise, after you responded with hostility, I can't make myself believe that you are sincere now.

I am hostile to people who are posting with ulterior motives. Of course if someone is truly searching I would not be hostile at all.

amother

Pink

Sun, Mar 01 2020, 2:33 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

If Hashem were a person, then you'd be right.

As it is, you have two choices: Believe in Hashem, or don't believe in Hashem. The main difference is that if you don't believe in Hashem, then everything is bad luck, you have no one to daven to when you're in trouble, and it's pretty much just a roll of the dice. You don't need to say thank you, maybe, but if something goes wrong you have no one to complain to either.

If you do believe in Hashem, then you do your best, you thank Hashem for things that go right and ask that you get more good things and not have to deal with bad things.

The kind of request Hashem likes best is "thank you, please give me more of this" - that is Yosef's name - Yosaif Hashem li ben acheir. Note that after Yehuda - hapa'am odeh et Hashem - Leah stopped giving birth. But Rachel had another son after Yosef. She didn't say "thank you so much" she said "I love this, give me more of it!"

And about your examples, there is good and bad in everything. You can choose not to see one of the two sides, or you can choose to see them both.

One of our children had a bone growth that had us so scared. We did MRI, bone scan, x-ray, and when we went to the hospital to schedule a biopsy the doctor in charge looked at us and said: "I have good news and bad news. The good news is that it's not cancer. The bad news is that it's urgent and your child needs surgery ASAP."

By that time we were so worried that the "bad news" was not nearly as bad as we'd feared and we didn't even care, we were just so grateful that it was benign, that was all that mattered.

Yes I felt like Hashem was abusing us at the time. Because of that and a series of other things. But you know what? Life sucks sometimes. As long as everyone is basically healthy - it's all good.

Seriously.

I think that group is popular because it helps people see the good. When you see the good, more good things happen, and even when they don't your attitude improves and that helps you handle the bad stuff better.

Side note, I cannot believe I am posting such positive "inspirational" stuff. I always feel like the most pessimistic non-believing person I know. I always say I had a fight with Hashem and we're not on speaking terms anymore. Huh.

malki2

Sun, Mar 01 2020, 2:34 pm

I appreciate that the only one to get reported in this thread was yours truly, for suggesting that Hashem’s name be capitalized. Thanks.

amother

Lilac

Sun, Mar 01 2020, 2:35 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Your perspective is very very faulty.. learn about emunah and you’ll understand the difference from what you asked about abuse from a husband being the same. The major difference is only Hashem knows what’s good for us and only doesn’t what’s good for our neshama, a human abuser l’havdil doesn’t. Please strengthen your knowledge in emunah and you’ll see how you’ll understand better and see things in a better way

PinkFridge

Sun, Mar 01 2020, 2:38 pm

sequoia wrote:

I don’t feel shame that my fellow Jewish women are helping me. Gratitude, yes. Humility, yes. Shame, no.

The greatest philosophers and theologians have struggled with the problem of evil for millennia without a good resolution. There are no trite answers.

And you shouldn't feel shame. You have a healthy sense of self-worth. That comes from knowing your existence is meaningful. Being able to be productive and give definitely helps in that regard. For those who have never been in that position, or who might feel that their giving days are far outnumbered by their taking days, they know that every breath they take is valuable, that they can still think and think, say about the six constant mitzvos so they are so often doing mitzvos which is valuable. They might daven for others, or offer kind words and moral support. These are just some examples of how one develops healthy self-worth, which makes taking a different experience. Possibly difficult and humbling, but not shameful.

No, there are no trite answers to why good things happen to bad people. Years ago I heard a noted rabbi give a 3 part (hour each) series on this question and he said this was a distillation of a 9 hour series. And probably still not completely answering the question, but giving answers that enable us to persevere and have faith that there is a complete answer, even if we can't fully see it in this world, in this life.

PinkFridge

Sun, Mar 01 2020, 2:40 pm

amother [ Cerise ] wrote:

I'm agreeing with some of what you write.
But re the bolded: we have to respect people's struggles. And what better place to try to get answers that a site like this vs. some cynical FB group.

PinkFridge

Sun, Mar 01 2020, 2:45 pm

amother [ Pink ] wrote:

Side note, I cannot believe I am posting such positive "inspirational" stuff. I always feel like the most pessimistic non-believing person I know. I always say I had a fight with Hashem and we're not on speaking terms anymore. Huh.

We're all on a journey. Get your compass out. You might be further along than you think. You definitely have a lot of valuable thoughts to share.

chicco

Sun, Mar 01 2020, 3:00 pm

Every single action we have has a ripple effect. Because Hashem established this world on the basis of schar vonesh (which I don't believe is reward and punishment), that means that for every action there is a calculated response. All day our actions and their effects are a communication between us and G-d. Because He gave us free will, our actions lead to certain outcomes, not necessarily reward or punishment, but basic results. For example, if I were to pour water on my skirt, I would be wet. If I were to shoot a gun, something would be shot. We don't realize how our own input affects our lives, and when it is painful, we determine that we don't deserve this, or Gd is punishing us, etc etc. But in reality, whatever we experience is Hashem communicating to us in response to what we have "told" Him. We have at every moment the ability to change what we are "saying" and expect other results. If we pay attention to our lives we can connect the dots better, and even recognize how when Hashem responds to us, He does so in a way that is full of love. In addition, those who are tuned in to this, experience painful realities with a completely different perspective.

I understand how those in tremendous pain will struggle to feel this. But I believe it is the truth.

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