Corona vs Measles | Imamother

amother

Aqua

Sun, Mar 08 2020, 9:57 am

amother [ Mint ] wrote:

Imagine the first person in NY to have Corona would be a chasssidic or ultra yeshivish Jew.

Oy

The first person to spread it in NY is a frum Jew. He was the second person in the state.
The first person who had it in NY was a woman who came from Iran (a place known to be infected right now) and self-isolated.
Just saying.

Similarities to measles again: Frum people are breeding grounds for any outbreak because of our constant large gatherings, large families, close living quarters, extensive social life (shul 3x a day).

amother

Aqua

Sun, Mar 08 2020, 10:01 am

amother [ Vermilion ] wrote:

No, she's right. People who knowingly spread measles aren't oiver on v'neshmartem, but on Shefichat Damim.

People who are unvaccinated (whether to measles or to corona) who are healthy and have not been exposed as far as they know are not knowingly spreading anything. Otherwise, all NY'ers would right now be under quarantine for 2 weeks. Why aren't we? Because there are no anti-vaxxers to blame.

ora_43

Sun, Mar 08 2020, 10:52 am

amother [ Aqua ] wrote:

Measles is much, much more contagious. AFAIK it's the most contagious disease out there. You can catch measles just by being in a room that a person with measles was standing in an hour ago.

Coronavirus is worryingly contagious, too, but still nowhere near that level. With coronavirus it makes sense to quarantine only people from certain areas, or people who've been in contact with ill people, in a way it wouldn't with measles.

ora_43

Sun, Mar 08 2020, 10:58 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Now that the noose is tightening on the world as more and more across the globe are diagnosed with the virus, I can’t help but contrast our reactions to corona virus vs measles.

Honestly, from here on imamother the reaction looks about the same. Same three types of posts:

1. "Wow, this is scary"

2. "Just take reasonable precautions and daven, there's not much else you can do"

3. "Puh-leaze, this isn't a big deal at all. What are the odds of a kid dying, like, 0.3%? That number looks super small. And it's probably not really that high, anyway, the WHO is just exaggerating. And anyway, a lot of the dead people were sick already, so it's like it doesn't even count."

amother

Aqua

Sun, Mar 08 2020, 11:05 am

Sebastian wrote:

afaik healthy ppl are being put into quarantine. By the measles outbreak, healthy anti vaxers refused to quarantine.

Only if they were known to be exposed.

By the measles outbreak, people wanted anti-vaxxers to quarantine altogether, as if they are diseased by fact of being unvaxxed.

Amarante

Sun, Mar 08 2020, 12:15 pm

amother [ Aqua ] wrote:

Only if they were known to be exposed.

By the measles outbreak, people wanted anti-vaxxers to quarantine altogether, as if they are diseased by fact of being unvaxxed.

You don't understand the theory of immunization and herd immunity.

When enough people are immunized, the virus no longer has the ability to spread because it lacks hosts. Thus people who truly can't be immunized - the young, the immuno-compromized or those who MEDICALLY are unable to vaccinate are unlikely to come into contact with the virus and therefore the virus dies out for lack of suitable hosts.

Viruses are actually considered somewhat ineffective when their kill rate is too hate since they kill to many hosts and therefore are not able to spread beyond a certain point.

With Coronavirus no one has immunity - there is no vaccine and there is no cure. The most that can be done is to treat symptoms.

If enough of the population came down with Corona - even if most had relatively mild cases - hospitals and health personnel would be overwhelmed attempting to treat the severe cases. And this would impact the ability to treat people with other diseases who need hospitalization or medical attention.

Also there would probably be shortages of medications needed to treat Corona as well as other viral and/or bacterial diseases. Many medications are made in China and so the supply chain has been cut off. Already there are shortages of various medications although the government doesn't want to say which ones for fear of causing panic and runs on the medication by people who don't need it who are stockpiling. Even basic antibiotics which would be used to help prevent secondary bacterial infections such as pneumonia could be in short supply.

amother

Lavender

Sun, Mar 08 2020, 12:58 pm

Jeanette wrote:

Nope, not how it works, sorry.

In a public health situation, our obligation is to follow the guidelines of public health officials to keep ALL of us safe. It's not an each-for-himself situation where as long as I'm safe who cares what happens to anyone else.

Your belief is kochi v’otzem yodi. The hishtadlut has nothing to do with the results. The results are from Gd alone.

Jeanette

Sun, Mar 08 2020, 1:19 pm

amother [ Lavender ] wrote:

Your belief is kochi v’otzem yodi. The hishtadlut has nothing to do with the results. The results are from Gd alone.

Please. It is not kochi v'otzem yadi to take reasonable precautions to protect ourselves and others against diseases. It's an obligation according to Torah.

Kochi v'otzem yadi is the belief that because I did XYZ I am therefore safe and nothing will happen to me.

amother

Aqua

Sun, Mar 08 2020, 1:39 pm

Amarante wrote:

Your post doesn't respond to mine.
Also, you keep interchanging immunized with vaccinated. It's quite confusing.

amother

Aquamarine

Sun, Mar 08 2020, 3:00 pm

amother [ Aqua ] wrote:

Only if they were known to be exposed.

By the measles outbreak, people wanted anti-vaxxers to quarantine altogether, as if they are diseased by fact of being unvaxxed.

Well, measles is about 5 to 7 times more infectious than the this coronavirus, so I suppose that was reasonable. There was also a vaccine for measles, which anti vaxxers were refusing. Measles has a similar mortality rate in certain age groups, but has greater complications such as deafness, blindness.

BH there is no novel measles.

amother

Aqua

Sun, Mar 08 2020, 3:06 pm

amother [ Goldenrod ] wrote:

Yes they are sweetie. Check in a dictionary if you would like. Vaccinations and Immunizations are the same thing (with the latter being more popular in British English). So are Immunized and vaccinated.

Do some reading:
https://www.sadakafirm.com/imm.....tion/

https://byjus.com/biology/diff.....tion/

The interchangeable use of the two terms is inaccurate and misleading.

amother

Goldenrod

Sun, Mar 08 2020, 3:08 pm

amother [ Aqua ] wrote:

Do some reading:
https://www.sadakafirm.com/imm.....tion/

https://byjus.com/biology/diff.....tion/

The interchangeable use of the two terms is inaccurate and misleading.

I don't have time to read now though I did check up in a couple online dictionaries before.

And as I said, that is the term used in British English. They call it immunizations, not vaccinations.

amother

Tangerine

Sun, Mar 08 2020, 3:13 pm

amother [ Aqua ] wrote:

Do some reading:
https://www.sadakafirm.com/imm.....tion/

https://byjus.com/biology/diff.....tion/

The interchangeable use of the two terms is inaccurate and misleading.

From your second post.

Vaccination
The process involves Introducing a weakened / deactivated disease causing microbes into a person

Immunization

The process starts after the person is exposed to the vaccine and the body starts building resistance to that disease

Please explain what is misleading?

amother

Aqua

Sun, Mar 08 2020, 4:12 pm

Immunization is the process by which one becomes immunized. There are various methods of acquiring immunity. Vaccination is one way by which (many but not all) people can become immune.

It is misleading to equate vaccination with immunization. There are many vaccines for which immunity is far from guaranteed. And there are other methods of immunization, as listed in the first link I posted.

During the measles outbreak there were people who were vaccinated and immune, vaccinated and not immune, not vaccinated and immune, not vaccinated and not immune. Now with the coronavirus, there are only not vaccinated, mostly not immune, some immune.

During the measles outbreak, all unvaccinated and unimmune were forced into quarantine. However, there were a small number of vaccinated and unimmune people who caught the virus and went out in public because they mistakenly thought, like you, that vaccination=immunization.

The difference now is that everyone is unvaccinated and since we have no one to blame for the outbreak (I.e. unvaccinated people) and can't force everyone to quarantine, we are doing what we can to protect ourselves and relying on Hashem Who Has a plan for each individual regardless of vaccination status. He is The One Who decides who develops immunity to a vaccine, who will be exposed, who will get infected, and who will remain with permanent damage. Everyone should do *their* best hishtadlus, and not force their hishtadlus onto others.