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Who was Vashti in history?
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amother




OP
 

Post  Sun, Mar 08 2020, 1:31 am
I'm trying to find her name-
The wife of Xeres seems to be Amestris.

There is a disagreement whether Amestris was Esther or Vashti.

Anyone knows?
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Sunshineforever




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Mar 08 2020, 1:48 am
"He married the princess Amestris, daughter of Otanes, who would become mother to his sons Darius, Hystaspes, Artaxerxes I (r. 465-424 BCE, Achamenes, and daughters Amytis and Rhodogune. "

If Otanes was her father, it can't be esther.
Also, I don't think she bore any children for him or they would be jewish.
Anyone know?
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trixx




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Mar 08 2020, 1:51 am
Esther did give birth to Darius II who was Jewish and allowed jews to resume building bais hamikdash
Interesting q. There is a historical sefer on the story im sure it addresses it.
Edit purim and tbe persian empire by yehuda landy. Al hanissim by meir lamberski
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amother




OP
 

Post  Sun, Mar 08 2020, 3:02 am
Sunshineforever wrote:
"He married the princess Amestris, daughter of Otanes, who would become mother to his sons Darius, Hystaspes, Artaxerxes I (r. 465-424 BCE, Achamenes, and daughters Amytis and Rhodogune. "

If Otanes was her father, it can't be esther.
Also, I don't think she bore any children for him or they would be jewish.
Anyone know?



Vashti's father was definitely Belshazzar.

They did have a child according to one medrish. He was Darius (or Cirus) who later rebuilt the Bais Hamikdosh.

(I read that the reason she said k'Asher avadati avadati was because up until then, Esther was still intimate with Mordche every month.
The reason she was mutar to her husband Mordche even after being with Acahshversoh was because she was with Achashversoh by force.

Esther's argument to Mordche was that once she goes to Acahshverosh out of her own free will she will no longer be mutar to Mordche but Mordche told her to do it anyway. Then she said kasher avadati avadati. If I'm lost from this world and from the next so be it. I'll go to Achashverosh and save my people.)


Yes I know there are shitas that argue whether she was the wife of Mordche and I know that there is a shita that she wasn't physically intimate with Achashverosh she sent a Shed so according to that shita they couldn't have a child except on this one fateful night.

Mordche told her that it doesnt make sense that the ness should come about through a shed so she literally sacrificed herself and went.



I love the megilah!
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amother




Maroon
 

Post  Sun, Mar 08 2020, 3:05 am
But...
If that's true that Darius was her son, then why didn't he marry someone jewish? Do you really believe Esther would of been ok with having a child that didn't live a jewish life?!!
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amother




OP
 

Post  Sun, Mar 08 2020, 3:07 am
amother [ Maroon ] wrote:
But...
If that's true that Darius was her son, then why didn't he marry someone jewish? Do you really believe Esther would of been ok with having a child that didn't live a jewish life?!!


Maybe she wasn't ok with it but I don't think she had that many choices.
He was nice to the Jews.

I am also curious about this because lets say she didnt have a choice while Achashverosh was alive, a year after Nes Purim Achashversoh died so why couldn't she raise him Jewish from there on?
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amother




Maroon
 

Post  Sun, Mar 08 2020, 3:11 am
I don't understand that either.

Our whole childhood we were taught that one has to rather be killed than have relations even if forced.
I know mordechai said she should but honestly that makes me wonder if the rest of what we learnt was untrue.

It's stories like these that make my belief shaky.
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amother




Puce
 

Post  Sun, Mar 08 2020, 3:47 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:

I am also curious about this because lets say she didnt have a choice while Achashverosh was alive, a year after Nes Purim Achashversoh died so why couldn't she raise him Jewish from there on?

She was still a woman in a system that treated women like property.
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rowo




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Mar 08 2020, 5:47 am
amother [ Maroon ] wrote:
I don't understand that either.

Our whole childhood we were taught that one has to rather be killed than have relations even if forced.
I know mordechai said she should but honestly that makes me wonder if the rest of what we learnt was untrue.

It's stories like these that make my belief shaky.


I learnt this a few years ago, so I might not have all the details.
But I once learnt that that was exactly what made her so great. When she was forced to be with achashverosh it was one thing, but by going to offer herself to him willingly she was was knowingly doing an aveira. It was her only chance to save bnei Yisroel, so she did it, even though she knew she was giving up her olam haba. Making her mesiras nefesh for her people so great.

It was a whole shiur, so obviously longer than one thought. But that point stuck with me
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amother




Aqua
 

Post  Sun, Mar 08 2020, 6:16 am
One of the reasons we don't say Hallel on Purim is that nothing really changed. The Jews still lived under the rule of a king who could change his mind and have them wiped out at any minute. Esther didn't go back to the Jewish community when the story ended, either.
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amother




Peach
 

Post  Sun, Mar 08 2020, 8:06 am
amother [ Maroon ] wrote:
I don't understand that either.

Our whole childhood we were taught that one has to rather be killed than have relations even if forced.
I know mordechai said she should but honestly that makes me wonder if the rest of what we learnt was untrue.

It's stories like these that make my belief shaky.


My DH told me tosafos discusses this one and apparently if a woman isn't actively participating she doesn't have to kill herself and can stay married to her real husband. Men on the other hand do need to kill themselves. So Esther only had a problem when she went to Achasverosh out of her own free will.
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amother




Bronze
 

Post  Sun, Mar 08 2020, 8:10 am
Rabbi YY Jacobson has a video class about this, so amazing that it made me want to name my next daughter after Esther Hamalka.
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amother




Yellow
 

Post  Sun, Mar 08 2020, 8:11 am
Did Esther really Lose her Olam Haba????
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amother




Purple
 

Post  Sun, Mar 08 2020, 8:29 am
Would assume no rsther the opposite- however she had no way of knowing that at the time- true mesirash nefesh
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amother




Sienna
 

Post  Sun, Mar 08 2020, 8:32 am
amother [ Bronze ] wrote:
Rabbi YY Jacobson has a video class about this, so amazing that it made me want to name my next daughter after Esther Hamalka.

What is the title of this class? Is it on torah anytime?
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amother




Burlywood
 

Post  Sun, Mar 08 2020, 9:02 am
We don't know everything. What I do know is that I cry everytime reading the megila she lost so much just to save klal jisrael. can you imagine doing this????
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amother




Blue
 

Post  Sun, Mar 08 2020, 9:42 am
I rememeber learning years ago( but dont remember all the details) that there are 3 aveiros that are yeharaig vaal yaavor. Gilui arayos, shephichas damim and avoda zara. This was gilui arayos, but qould involve saving people...because of some extra factors that I am blanking out on, normally is yaharaig vaal yaavir, however because she was saving people would be ok. BUT, the jews of the time would know...I think the gyst of the shiur was because it was for the matter of saving the jews, she wouldve been muttar to mordechai again, but everyone knew what she did and would say," well esther did and she went back 2 mordechai after..."so parr of her sacrifice was not being able 2 go back 2 mordechai. And mordechai told her she would still get olam haba
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amother




Forestgreen
 

Post  Sun, Mar 08 2020, 10:14 am
amother [ Maroon ] wrote:
I don't understand that either.

Our whole childhood we were taught that one has to rather be killed than have relations even if forced.
I know mordechai said she should but honestly that makes me wonder if the rest of what we learnt was untrue.

It's stories like these that make my belief shaky.

I never learned that. You have to be willing to die rather than willingly commit adultery. You are not held accountable if you are forced. Maybe you were not taught correctly, that's all
And since Mordechai gave her permission he was in effect divorcing her so it wasn't adultery.
And I went to a pretty open BY oot school that taught the back story of the megillah, including that when Esther met with Mordechai while she was married to the king she was also immersing in a mikvah so they could have relations.
And for those people wondering why Esther couldn't just move back to the Jewish community, well, it wasn't like nowadays in a free society. She would have been killed. Her son belonged to the crown etc. I don't know that we have a full appreciation for how things have changed in history.
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amother




Maroon
 

Post  Sun, Mar 08 2020, 10:19 am
Mordechai raised her because her parents died, then he married her?!

Seems very inappropriate!
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amother




Forestgreen
 

Post  Sun, Mar 08 2020, 10:24 am
The family set up then was nothing like modern times. I am sure she lived in a separate "women's quarters" and had some sort of Nanny type. They probably interacted on formal occasions only, and he supported her financially.. It's not like he was a modern type dad.
Again we really have no appreciation for how things have changed in history!

Remember it's not so long ago that it was normal for an uncle and niece to marry or even first cousins.
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