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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Mar 08 2020, 4:55 am
Welcome and בהצלחה.
מחיל אל חיל (quoted in ברכות סד Wink )


Last edited by Aylat on Sun, Mar 08 2020, 5:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Mar 08 2020, 5:11 am
I began to look through the mishnayot on Shabbat (appropriately enough) and was immediately surprised by the structure. I expected a list of the לט מלאכות and a breakdown of the details of each. Instead jumped straight into הוצאה, the odd-one-out מלאכה, nowadays almost always listed last. An orderly list of מלאכות doesn't appear til פרק ז.
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Mar 08 2020, 5:15 am
https://chat.whatsapp.com/I7vV.....ukpPa

Link to join whatsapp group Mishna for Daf Yomi, audios by Yoel Padowitz.
This is the blurb.
"I’m part of an excellent Mishna WhatsApp group designed specifically for Daf Yomi learners. Understanding the Mishnayos ahead of time makes a HUGE difference getting the most out of the Daf. Shabbos is about to begin.."

I joined because right from the beginning of ברכות I was thinking that an overview and understanding of the Mishna would really help.
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amother




Pumpkin
 

Post Sun, Mar 08 2020, 8:06 am
Hi it’s Mustard! Jumping right in to see what color I get LOL
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amother




Pumpkin
 

Post Sun, Mar 08 2020, 8:08 am
Eeew!!! I think I’d rather stick with Mustard . . . Rolling Eyes
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chicco




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Mar 08 2020, 9:17 am
amother [ Pumpkin ] wrote:
Eeew!!! I think I’d rather stick with Mustard . . . Rolling Eyes


No worries. We will still call you Mustard. LOL
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malki2




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Mar 08 2020, 9:26 am
amother [ Pumpkin ] wrote:
Eeew!!! I think I’d rather stick with Mustard . . . Rolling Eyes


Don’t worry! Shabbos is only another 4.5 months. You can try again when we start Eiruvin.
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naturalmom5




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Mar 08 2020, 12:09 pm
Shabbat 2


Specific Dinnim pertaining to Hotza’ah being a Melacha Garuah


If the Issur Hotza’ah applies on Yom Tov / If it applies on
Yom Kippur / If we can differentiate between Hotza’ah and
other Melachos concerning doing the Melacha in parts / If
resting one’s animal applies to Hotza’ah
- תוספות , פרי מגדים, פני יהושע -


[ב [We have mentioned that Hotza’ah is considered a Melacha
Garuah. It is clear from both the Gemara and the Poskim that
this label is the cause for a number of differences between Hotza’ah
and other Melachos of Shabbos. We will now discuss a few of them.
In Beitzah 12 there is a disagreement in the Gemara concerning
whether or not the Issur Hotza’ah applies on Yom Tov. Tosafos 13
clearly articulates there that the reasoning to say it doesn’t apply
stems from its status as a Melacha Garuah. Additionally, the Tosafos
Ha’Rosh here writes that the reason to say Eiruv and Hotza’ah don’t
apply on Yom Tov is generated from Hotza’ah not being considered
a Melacha Chashuva. As such, there is reason to say it isn’t
applicable to Yom Tov where it is written “Lo sa’aseh melacha”.
Not only that, even concerning Yom Kippur the Gemara in
Yomah14 brings Rafram who says that both Eiruv and Hotza’ah don’t
apply. Additionally, the Tosafos Yom Tov there 15 writes that although
it is written “Lo sa’aseh kol melacha” with regards to Yom Kippur,
nevertheless Hotza’ah is not considered a complete Melacha. We see
this from how even concerning Shabbos it was necessary to learn it
out from its own pasuk and it was insufficient to get this from its
status as a Melacha performed in the Mishkan. [However, the Gemara
in Krisus 16 asserts that this statement of Rafram is a mistake.]
Additionally, the Gemara later 17 discusses where one first was
motzi a half dried fig and then put it down. Afterwards, he was
motzi another one and placed it down as well. The Gemara asserts
that as long as he removes the first one before placing the second,
the din is that he doesn’t transgress Hotza’ah. This is because at
the moment of the second action the first fig is no longer present.
Now, the Pri Megadim 18 raises the thought to say this din is
generated from Hotza’ah being a Melacha Garuah. This causes it
to stretch no further than what the Torah explicitly stated.
Therefore, the second fig can’t combine with the first when it is
no longer present. However, by other Melachos there is reason to
say two half shiurim would combine to create the full shiur. An
example would be where one first harvested a half shiur and then
a second one only after losing the first.
The Pnei Yehoshua 19 raises an application with regards to the
mitzvah for one to rest their animal on Shabbos. The Torah writes 20
“L’maan yanuach shorcha v’chamorecha”, and this teaches that
even animals are required to refrain from Melacha on Shabbos.
Regarding this din, the Pnei Yehoshua writes it is possible to say
Hotza’ah is not included. Because Hotza’ah is a Melacha Garuah
there is reason to believe it shouldn’t be a problem for an animal.
If Hotza’ah wouldn’t have been learnt out from pesukim it wouldn’t
have been considered a Melacha. As such, it is reasonable to say
that even after it was included that was specifically for people and
not animals. [However, Tosafos there 21 asserts that Hotza’ah is
applicable even to one’s resting his animals.]


Please let me know if you want me to post sources
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Mar 08 2020, 2:43 pm
amother [ Pumpkin ] wrote:
Eeew!!! I think I’d rather stick with Mustard . . . Rolling Eyes


Same colour family Wink Do you really like mustard better than pumpkin? We'll call you Mustard and confuse all newcomers to the thread.
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Mar 08 2020, 2:51 pm
Aylat wrote:
I began to look through the mishnayot on Shabbat (appropriately enough) and was immediately surprised by the structure. I expected a list of the לט מלאכות and a breakdown of the details of each. Instead jumped straight into הוצאה, the odd-one-out מלאכה, nowadays almost always listed last. An orderly list of מלאכות doesn't appear til פרק ז.


Shabbat 2

R Rosner addressed this! I love when my questions are asked by the מפרשים already. First Tosafot on the masechta gives three answers: it's a beloved mitzva, it's a common situation, and it's a מלאכה גרועה so was put first to emphasise it. The Vilna Gaon (I think) says it's obvious - הוצאה is explicitly mentioned in the Torah. .אַל יֵצֵא אִישׁ מִמְּקֹמוֹ בַּיּוֹם הַשְּׁבִיעִי - שמות טז:כט


Last edited by Aylat on Sun, Mar 08 2020, 2:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Mar 08 2020, 2:56 pm
Shabbat 2

Can someone help me understand the 2 that is 4 הוצאות?
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amother




Pumpkin
 

Post Sun, Mar 08 2020, 4:28 pm
Aylat wrote:
Same colour family Wink Do you really like mustard better than pumpkin? We'll call you Mustard and confuse all Wink newcomers to the thread.


I can’t stand either color or food (so I think this must be some kind of conspiracy), but as was rightly pointed out an the previous thread- mustard is at least associated with sharpness, while pumpkin sounds like a country bumpkin . . . Rolling Eyes . Besides, I’ve already gotten used to Mustard . . . Wink
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amother




Pumpkin
 

Post Sun, Mar 08 2020, 9:57 pm
Aylat wrote:
Shabbat 2

Can someone help me understand the 2 that is 4 הוצאות?


My understanding is that there are 2 actions (I.e. hotza’ah and hachnasah) that translate into 4 actions because they are multiplied by the 2 categories of people who can do each of them (I.e. the person inside and the person outside).

Or that for each person (I.e. inside and outside) there are 2 d'oraiysa actions and and additional 2 d’rabbanan actions, which equals 4 for each.

Or alternatively: that there are 2 areas (reshuyos) multiplied by the 2 actions that can be done in each of them (hotza’ah and hachnasah) which equals 4.
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malki2




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Mar 08 2020, 10:19 pm
amother [ Pumpkin ] wrote:
My understanding is that there are 2 actions (I.e. hotza’ah and hachnasah) that translate into 4 actions because they are multiplied by the 2 categories of people who can do each of them (I.e. the person inside and the person outside).

Or that for each person (I.e. inside and outside) there are 2 d'oraiysa actions and and additional 2 d’rabbanan actions, which equals 4 for each.

Or alternatively: that there are 2 areas (reshuyos) multiplied by the 2 actions that can be done in each of them (hotza’ah and hachnasah) which equals 4.


But in the Mishnah, it’s really 4 which is 8. שנים שהם ארבע בפנים ושנים שהם ארבע בחוץ.
So you need to understand a couple of concepts. 1) In order to be Chayav Sekila or a korban for doing a melacha of Hotzaah, it needs to be the complete melachah, meaning that you need both an Akira and a Hanacha. Meaning picking up and setting down. And these both have to be done by the same person. 2) if the Akira and Hanacha are done by two different parties, this is called “Patur Aval Assur”. So the cases that you referred to earlier are the 4 cases that are Chayav. Then there are another four cases where the act was divided between the Ani and the Baal Habayit.
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malki2




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Mar 08 2020, 10:48 pm
amother [ Pumpkin ] wrote:
I can’t stand either color or food (so I think this must be some kind of conspiracy), but as was rightly pointed out an the previous thread- mustard is at least associated with sharpness, while pumpkin sounds like a country bumpkin . . . Rolling Eyes . Besides, I’ve already gotten used to Mustard . . . Wink


I can eat mustard on (almost) everything. Pumpkins, not so much, unless you count pumpkin seeds.
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imorethanamother




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Mar 09 2020, 3:34 am
Guys. I don’t know if I’m smart enough to continue. Everyone said that berachos was the “easy” one.
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amother




Pumpkin
 

Post Mon, Mar 09 2020, 6:55 am
imorethanamother wrote:
Guys. I don’t know if I’m smart enough to continue. Everyone said that berachos was the “easy” one.


I sympathize with your frustration, because it is difficult - but you don’t have to be smart to listen to a shiur. Daf Yomi isn’t learning b’iyun. It’s a kind of survey of all the shas topics. Whatever we get - we get. Eventually, with all the repetition, some of it sinks in. Even if we don’t get everything, we’re still light years ahead of where we would be without learning at all . . .
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chicco




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Mar 09 2020, 3:43 pm
malki2 wrote:
But in the Mishnah, it’s really 4 which is 8. שנים שהם ארבע בפנים ושנים שהם ארבע בחוץ.
So you need to understand a couple of concepts. 1) In order to be Chayav Sekila or a korban for doing a melacha of Hotzaah, it needs to be the complete melachah, meaning that you need both an Akira and a Hanacha. Meaning picking up and setting down. And these both have to be done by the same person. 2) if the Akira and Hanacha are done by two different parties, this is called “Patur Aval Assur”. So the cases that you referred to earlier are the 4 cases that are Chayav. Then there are another four cases where the act was divided between the Ani and the Baal Habayit.


And then today, that 8 is really 12. But don't worry, it certainly is not 16.
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amother




Forestgreen
 

Post Mon, Mar 09 2020, 3:57 pm
imorethanamother wrote:
Guys. I don’t know if I’m smart enough to continue. Everyone said that berachos was the “easy” one.


I totally sympathize with you.
I was doing the 8 minute daf, just to get some yediyos of where and how concepts are in the gemara.
I skipped a few and got behind.

But I decided I'll get back into it for Shabbos.
But this is hard
I want to stay motivated. But sheesh.

I strongly believe that even if I don't understand, but I struggle and listen through each shiur, I'm gaining something huge. The knowledge of where all the concepts in my life are argued, and how it comes from pesukim to halacha.
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naturalmom5




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Mar 09 2020, 6:53 pm
Shabbos 3


The Shiurim on Shabbos concerning the Din M’leches Machsheves
Concerning Melachos that have a shiur, if we should allow a half
shiur and consider it to be a half Melacha / Two approaches to
understanding the concept of M’leches Machsheves

- תוצאות חיים -
[ ב [The Sefer Totzaos Chaim 7 cites the Poskim mentioned earlier who
write that half a Melacha is muttar min hatorah, and that is why
it is muttar to do an akirah without a hanacha. This is true although
a half shiur concerning the Melachos of Shabbos is assur min hatorah
like we see from Rashi 8 where he writes it is assur on Shabbos to
cook even less than the subscribed shiur. However, the Totzaos Chaim
questions this through the words of the Rashbam 9 who writes the
reason one is pattur for being motzi half a dried fig on Shabbos is
because one needs a M’leches Machsheves (an act that is considered
chashuv)to be chayiv. Transporting half a fig is not considered an act
of being motzi something chashuv. It is clear from his words that the
shiurim applied to the Melachos of Shabbos aren’t generated purely
by the regular rules mentioned in the Torah. Rather, the driving force
behind them is that without a shiur the action performed is not
considered a M’leches Machsheves.

Now, we have already mentioned the idea that only a half shiur
is assur min hatorah, and not a half Melacha. According to this it is
hard to understand how even a half shiur could be assur with regards
to the Melachos Shabbos. Every half shiur should be considered a
half Melacha because something less than the shiur isn’t considered
a M’leches Machsheves. Both the acts of cooking and being motzi less
than the shiur are not in the realm of M’leches Machsheves.
Therefore, it would seem their din should be just like a half Melacha
which is muttar min hatorah.

To answer, he writes we first need to understand how the concept
of M’leches Machsheves works. On the one hand, it is possible to
say that without a M’leches Machsheves it is considered as if
something is missing in the Melacha itself. Just like one is pattur for
doing a hanacha without an akirah because he is missing in the
Melacha, so too the same would be true anytime a Melacha is
performed in a way that isn’t considered a M’leches Machsheves. On
the other hand, it is possible to say it truthfully is a complete
Melacha. Instead, the issue is generated by a stipulation that for
something to be considered a Melacha one is chayiv for, it needs to
be an act that is chashuv.


He continues that this very safek is the subject of disagreement
between Rashi and the Rambam regarding pruning and planting on
Shabbos. From Rashi there 10 it is clear the concept of M’leches
Machsheves is merely an additional stipulation within the Melacha.
Although something is called a Melacha even without this stipulation,
nevertheless a M’leches Machsheves is necessary to be chayiv. On the
other hand, from the Rambam 11 we find that being a M’leches
Machsheves is part of being considered a Melacha. Without this
element the Melacha itself is lacking.


With this he goes back to how Rashi 12 wrote that it is assur min
hatorah to cook half a shiur on Shabbos just like by other half
shiurim. He explains that this works in tandem with Rashi’s own shita
concerning how a M’leches Machsheves is not a part of a Melacha
itself, and is rather a side stipulation. Because of this he holds a half
shiur on Shabbos is also assur min hatorah. On the other hand, the
Rambam holds M’leches Machsheves is an actual part of the Melacha
itself. As such, to him it comes out that it is muttar min hatorah to
cook less than the shiur. Once we know shiurim on Shabbos have to
do with M’leches Machsheves it comes that less than the shiur is
similar to half a Melacha, and as we already know the issur of a half
shiur isn’t applicable there.
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