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naturalmom5




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Apr 01 2020, 6:06 am
This started out as my main thread here.
I have been so busy with Pesach and Corona turmoil, that I havent posted heee in a while

Iyh I will catch up on daf this week and share some haoros..
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Apr 01 2020, 6:25 am
amother [ Pumpkin ] wrote:
1) This is one of the rare mitzvos d’rabbanan, where women have an equal chiyuv and can actually be motzi men. I grew up lighting (as do/did my daughters), but when I got married - I stopped, because I thought married women are always yotzei with their husbands as an application of “Ishto k’gufo.” It bothered me on several levels. If mehadrin min ha’mehadrin is every member of the household, am I not a member of the household? Why wouldn’t it add to the hiddur to have me light? Also, I like to do my own mitzvos, when possible, and I missed making the brachos and actively participating in this one. A couple of years ago, I heard/saw that no less than R’Chaim Kanievsky paskened that a married woman can light on her own. When asked “what about ishto k”gufo?” he answered, “she’s k’gufo if she wants to be k’gufo.” Fortunately, my husband has no objection to me lighting on my own, so I have resumed active participation in this mitzvah. Other reasons that I saw for women/girls not lighting include reasons of tznius (as they used to all light outdoors). This reason is still applied to women/girls today (especially in more chassidish communities).


Fascinating, not heard that psak from R Kanievsky, maybe I'll ask my Rav next year what I should do. I grew up lighting, and my daughter lights, but my mother didn't and neither do I since I got married. Except nowadays I normally light at least a few times over Chanuka when my husband is on an overnight shift.

PS this is actually one of the mitzvot I don't mind not actively doing because I like the אשתו כגופו symbolism.
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Apr 01 2020, 6:36 am
amother [ Pumpkin ] wrote:

Women are included in the mitzvos aseh of Shabbos (but not of Yom Tov) because of “shamor v’zachor b’dibbur echad.” Whoever is included in the shamor (I.e. mitzvos lo sa’aseh)is included in the zachor (I.e. mitzvos aseh).

Women aren't מחוייבת in kiddush of YT?

amother [ Pumpkin ] wrote:

Regarding korban Pesach - there are shitos that women are not mechuyav

Never heard this, do you know which shita?

amother [ Pumpkin ] wrote:

Women are not included in the mitzvah of shofar, but this is an example of a mitzvah that women (apparently) have accepted upon themselves, and all women make an effort to fulfill this mitzvah.

I wonder if this mechanism could still come into effect nowadays if the majority of women do a certain mitzva so consistently as to become an obligation?

amother [ Pumpkin ] wrote:

Torah study isn’t time-bound, but women’s exemption is derived from v’limadtem osam es b’neichem, which is very narrowly translated as “sons” rather than “children.” And then, since girls are not included in those who have to be taught - women are not included in those who have to teach, and all who don’t have to teach, similarly don’t have to learn. . .

I never understood this drash - where else do we interpret בניכם as only males? It normally applies to all descendants, no?

amother [ Pumpkin ] wrote:

Interestingly, women’s exemption from z’man gramahs is derived from the Proximity of the mitzvah of tefillin to that of v’limadtem osam es b’neichem. Since women are exempt from the mitzvah of limud Torah, they are similarly exempt from the mitzvah of tefillin - and since the mitzvah of tefillin is a zman gramah, they are similarly exempt from all zman gramahs, and so-on-and-so-forth, with a cascading effect . . .

Wait, that's the origin of it? Was that in Masechet Brachot somewhere?


amother [ Pumpkin ] wrote:

(This is one of the things that makes me sad 😢.)

Mustard/Pumkin, are you the OP of a thread (quite a while ago) about women and Torah? Or maybe a prominent poster on it? I remember someone very sincere and learned there and you remind me of her. (You don't need to answer if you prefer not.)
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Apr 01 2020, 6:39 am
naturalmom5 wrote:
This started out as my main thread here.
I have been so busy with Pesach and Corona turmoil, that I havent posted heee in a while

Iyh I will catch up on daf this week and share some haoros..


It's been quiet here and I was hoping that everyone is doing okay Hug and just overwhelmed as chicco said. I did see naturalmom5 and imorethanamother posting in other threads, so I assumed you were both okay, but I don't know who Mustard is and there are others who post here too Hug
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Apr 01 2020, 7:13 am
I'm going to take another few minutes and post some of my thoughts and questions before getting back to my extensive list of tasks TMI

Shabbat 25

סימן פנ"ק עכ"ס: פיגול נותר קרבן מעילה וכרת ,
אסור לאונן....., שכן מחפ"ז סימן: מיתה חומש
ואין לה פדיון ואסורה לזרים

A Chazal mnemonic! And there's another famous one in the Haggada דצך עדש באחב! I wonder what others there are.


תתן לו - לו ולא לאורו

So what do you do if you've already separated תרומה and it becomes טמא before you give it to the כהן?

סדין בציצית, בית שמאי פוטרין ובית הלל מחייבין, והלכה כדברי בית הלל"!
Why don't we go according to בית הילל and wear shatnetz tzitzit nowadays?


תנו רבנן: איזהו עשיר?....
רבי יוסי אומר: כל שיש לו בית הכסא סמוך לשולחנו.

Health is wealth. Very felt at the moment.

Ok, I'm out of time!
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imorethanamother




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Apr 03 2020, 1:06 am
The very very big downside to Corona is that suddenly I can't listen to shiurim. I always think to myself that I'll have plenty of time, I'll just make sure my kids are on their zoom classes, etc etc, and then I have to clean this (no housekeeper) and then this kid is fighting and that kid stole the iPad and is hiding with it in their room and this kid has to do homework and I'm up late doing the daf again. And I wake up late.

Sometimes, on my way to Costco, I'll listen to a shiur in the car like I used to. I'll try at night while I'm cleaning. I keep trying and I keep finding that I literally DO NOT RETAIN ANYTHING. And these zoom classes are everywhere! And the whatsapp chats with every Rabbi "I just wanted to share a thought I had..." and "I just wanted to thank all the women out there! You're doing so much AND cleaning for Pesach!" (Um, so maybe you should also clean for Pesach???) Every single Rav and Rebbitzen is in massive overdrive, churning out four shiurim a DAY.

And then there's the "call into this hotline for a Who's Who List of Speakers!". And "Quick! The Shabbos HaGadol shiur is NOW!" And "Here's some Pesach tips!" And "Let's do the Haggadah!"

I'm inundated with shiurim, and yet my brain is totally fried. It's super scary.

Last night, I was trying to learn the daf (26), and it's SO HARD. And the worst thing? Is that I went, "Oh well who cares." I never say that. I hate not knowing things. But this? It's like I can't be bothered to figure it out or even pay close attention. I finish the shiur, go "Whatever", and walk away.

I think that bothers me most of all.

Tonight is more of the same! Clothing! 3x3! Wool! Linen! Habeged! Oy beged! Small! Large! Ceilings made out of cotton! WUT.
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Apr 03 2020, 6:16 am
imorethanamother wrote:
The very very big downside to Corona is that suddenly I can't listen to shiurim. I always think to myself that I'll have plenty of time, I'll just make sure my kids are on their zoom classes, etc etc, and then I have to clean this (no housekeeper) and then this kid is fighting and that kid stole the iPad and is hiding with it in their room and this kid has to do homework and I'm up late doing the daf again. And I wake up late.

Yep yep yep.

imorethanamother wrote:

Sometimes, on my way to Costco, I'll listen to a shiur in the car like I used to. I'll try at night while I'm cleaning. I keep trying and I keep finding that I literally DO NOT RETAIN ANYTHING. And these zoom classes are everywhere! And the whatsapp chats with every Rabbi "I just wanted to share a thought I had..." and "I just wanted to thank all the women out there! You're doing so much AND cleaning for Pesach!" (Um, so maybe you should also clean for Pesach???) Every single Rav and Rebbitzen is in massive overdrive, churning out four shiurim a DAY.

And then there's the "call into this hotline for a Who's Who List of Speakers!". And "Quick! The Shabbos HaGadol shiur is NOW!" And "Here's some Pesach tips!" And "Let's do the Haggadah!"

I'm inundated with shiurim, and yet my brain is totally fried. It's super scary.


One of my problems is that I don't go anywhere and my main shiur time was driving.
But even before the actual lockdown I was already losing focus, my brain chasing random thoughts, anxieties, changing plans.

I don't listen to all the inspirational video clips people are forwarding on whatsapp. It's not what I need right now. It's not contributing to my davening, parenting, Pesach cleaning, learning, or general coping with the matzav. It's good for those it's good for. I stick with what works for me. I'm just ploughing on with the daf.


imorethanamother wrote:

Last night, I was trying to learn the daf (26), and it's SO HARD. And the worst thing? Is that I went, "Oh well who cares." I never say that. I hate not knowing things. But this? It's like I can't be bothered to figure it out or even pay close attention. I finish the shiur, go "Whatever", and walk away.

I think that bothers me most of all.

Tonight is more of the same! Clothing! 3x3! Wool! Linen! Habeged! Oy beged! Small! Large! Ceilings made out of cotton! WUT.


One of the things I admire about you is your refusal to accept anything less than complete understanding. What you describe is my normal level - except for the don't care. I would love to follow the shakla vetarya, to learn it by heart and be able to repeat it back. To ask probing kashas and search for answers in the Rishonim and Acharonim. To trace the different shitas of Tannaim/Amoraim and how each plays out in their position on different issues.

BUT I can't right now. תפסת מרובה לא תפסת. I'm getting what I can, which is more than nothing. At the moment it's less than what I managed for Brachot (I've dropped Zichru for the time being).
My takeaway from the sugya you mention: there is a debate about the size of material necessary for a garment to be מקבל טומאה. Cool, I didn't know that before. Never even thought about it. So I learned something.

Shabbat shslim6
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chicco




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Apr 03 2020, 6:45 am
Yes, and yes. The best I get right now, is just trying to read through myself when I get a spare minute. Which is like never. And I certainly am not processing most of what I read. Yesterday was so upside down, I couldn't remember if I said birchas haTorah, so I didn't even try. The few times I put on a shiur thinking I'll be able to listen, it doesn't work out and then I get upset and resentful. And then I remember that can't be my focus right now. I'm over a week behind. I do as much as I can whenever I can, but I'm completely overwhelmed and off schedule. Kol hakavod to those of you who are still moving along!
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imorethanamother




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Apr 03 2020, 11:36 am
chicco wrote:
Yes, and yes. The best I get right now, is just trying to read through myself when I get a spare minute. Which is like never. And I certainly am not processing most of what I read. Yesterday was so upside down, I couldn't remember if I said birchas haTorah, so I didn't even try. The few times I put on a shiur thinking I'll be able to listen, it doesn't work out and then I get upset and resentful. And then I remember that can't be my focus right now. I'm over a week behind. I do as much as I can whenever I can, but I'm completely overwhelmed and off schedule. Kol hakavod to those of you who are still moving along!


I went on a Zoom shiur last night of someone I was really excited about, and it was awful. First I couldn't follow what he was saying. And then he didn't know how to use Zoom, so he didn't mute everyone. Someone joined and started saying swear words, and I thought to myself, "oh that's awful he's going to be so embarrassed when he realizes." And then it escalated, and the speaker went, "Oh, we are being hacked."

He rejoined the meeting with everything muted, and then the hackers came back, and started scribbling all over his screenshare and then suddenly! P*rn images on the screen!!!

It was awful. The speaker said that tumah is attracted to kodesh, or something, but I think I need a break from technology.
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imorethanamother




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Apr 03 2020, 11:39 am
Aylat wrote:
One of the things I admire about you is your refusal to accept anything less than complete understanding. What you describe is my normal level - except for the don't care. I would love to follow the shakla vetarya, to learn it by heart and be able to repeat it back. To ask probing kashas and search for answers in the Rishonim and Acharonim. To trace the different shitas of Tannaim/Amoraim and how each plays out in their position on different issues.

BUT I can't right now. תפסת מרובה לא תפסת. I'm getting what I can, which is more than nothing. At the moment it's less than what I managed for Brachot (I've dropped Zichru for the time being).
My takeaway from the sugya you mention: there is a debate about the size of material necessary for a garment to be מקבל טומאה. Cool, I didn't know that before. Never even thought about it. So I learned something.

Shabbat shslim6


You must be joking. Your "normal level" is way above mine. You seem to understand sources much better than I do, and even at my best I could never trace different shitas, EVER.

Did you grow up learning gemara? I know my sons will get this kind of education, where they will know how a Tanna would paskin based on previous texts, but it's all greek to me. (I guess pun intended)
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imorethanamother




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Apr 06 2020, 10:51 pm
OMG, apparently in the times of Mashiach a woman can give birth EVERY DAY. Does any woman alive know this? I would venture NO, otherwise we would actively pray AGAINST THIS.
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chicco




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Apr 06 2020, 11:05 pm
imorethanamother wrote:
OMG, apparently in the times of Mashiach a woman can give birth EVERY DAY. Does any woman alive know this? I would venture NO, otherwise we would actively pray AGAINST THIS.


Don't you think the experience would be completely different than it is now?

I didn't learn this Gemara yet, but I would venture it is a return to pre chait, when Adam and Chava went into the bed, and came out with kids. I also think it will be clearer than now that a child is the product of the relationship between the husband and wife. Almost like the idea of creating a malach with every amen. I'm not sure how much active raising these children will require. But all of this is just conjecture.
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amother




Pumpkin
 

Post  Tue, Apr 07 2020, 11:45 pm
imorethanamother wrote:
OMG, apparently in the times of Mashiach a woman can give birth EVERY DAY. Does any woman alive know this? I would venture NO, otherwise we would actively pray AGAINST THIS.


Lol. I always say only a man would consider “shisha b’keres echas” a bracha. I personally think it was part of the shibud in Mitzrayim.

Aylat, sorry for not answering your previous post. I had started to, but with all that is going on Crying I’ve been unable to find the time. (It’s all I can do to keep up with the Daf.) B”N on Chol Hamoed, if things have calmed down a bit, I will try to find time to answer some of your points. I am still continuing with Zichru, but while I am very fluent with the first 50+ dafim in Brachos, I am much less so with Shabbos. I am trying to find time to review, but right now it is so difficult . . . (I printed out all the Daf simanim, and I hope to find time to review them over Yom Tov. . .)

Thank you again to everyone who posts their thoughts here. While I may not always have time to write, it gives me chizuk to hear that others are learning, as well. Wishing everyone a Gutt Yom Tov with refu’os and yeshu’os - b’karov!
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imorethanamother




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Apr 07 2020, 11:58 pm
amother [ Pumpkin ] wrote:
Lol. I always say only a man would consider “shishim b’keres echas” a bracha. I personally think it was part of the shibud in Mitzrayim.
[/I]!


You crack me up. Although I don't think men want all that many kids, either. But the thought of being pregnant while you're pregnant is quite. . . not pleasant. I used to be obsessed with reading about those fundamentalist Mormons - the FLDS that have as many wives as they want and a billion kids. One of the women who escaped her awful life from that place describes that with each child, the man/father/husband grew less and less interested in that child. I can't exactly remember it, but she discussed that attachment takes time, and you can't form many attachments at once.
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malki2




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Apr 08 2020, 4:24 am
chicco wrote:
Don't you think the experience would be completely different than it is now?

I didn't learn this Gemara yet, but I would venture it is a return to pre chait, when Adam and Chava went into the bed, and came out with kids. I also think it will be clearer than now that a child is the product of the relationship between the husband and wife. Almost like the idea of creating a malach with every amen. I'm not sure how much active raising these children will require. But all of this is just conjecture.


I think that this is correct. Pregnancy, childbirth, and tzaar gidul banim were curses on women. In the future they will be removed. So there will be children, but without undergoing pregnancy or childbirth. It’s not meant to be thought about in terms of the current conditions.
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Apr 13 2020, 5:14 am
מועדים לשמחה!

At the end of מסכת ברכות someone on the other thread asked how our learning had impacted our daily life. I didn't get round to answering there - here's part of it for me.

I've been keeping a record of my halachic shailas that have arisen from my learning and before Pesach I called my Rav and went through the list. Here are some of them. (I'm not posting his answers; everyone should ask their own Rav.)

Holding a baby while davening Amida. (Can't find the page, I think around ברכות ל. Holding money and tefillin while davening.)

Interacting with (gesturing at) my children while saying Shema. (ברכות יד)

What length of journey to say Tefillat haDerech for. (ברכות כט)

Saying brachot in the swimming pool changing room. (ברכות can't remember page, בית המרחץ)

Saying brachot while on a tiyul and animal excrement all around. (ברכות כה)

Saying שהחיינו/מחיה מתים when seeing a friend haven't seen in a year. Saying משנה הבריות on wonderful animals or different-looking people. (ברכות נח)

Putting on noisy appliances eg dishwasher just before Shabbat starts. (שבת יח)
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Apr 13 2020, 5:42 am
chicco wrote:
Don't you think the experience would be completely different than it is now?

I didn't learn this Gemara yet, but I would venture it is a return to pre chait, when Adam and Chava went into the bed, and came out with kids. I also think it will be clearer than now that a child is the product of the relationship between the husband and wife. Almost like the idea of creating a malach with every amen. I'm not sure how much active raising these children will require. But all of this is just conjecture.


Really like this idea, thank you.

I also boggled at the giving birth every day Wink
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Apr 13 2020, 5:52 am
imorethanamother wrote:
You crack me up. Although I don't think men want all that many kids, either. But the thought of being pregnant while you're pregnant is quite. . . not pleasant. I used to be obsessed with reading about those fundamentalist Mormons - the FLDS that have as many wives as they want and a billion kids. One of the women who escaped her awful life from that place describes that with each child, the man/father/husband grew less and less interested in that child. I can't exactly remember it, but she discussed that attachment takes time, and you can't form many attachments at once.


Off topic slightly, but I think that depends also on the individual. Our experience has been the opposite. [I just deleted a whole long story about DH and our 5th child because it really was too off-topic!] I do agree that it takes a lot of work and time to build an individual relationship with each kid as they grow older and it's harder the more kids you have.

(So funny, I also went through an obsessed with Mormons and polygamy stage and read lots of blogs/watched documentaries.)
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Apr 13 2020, 5:55 am
amother [ Pumpkin ] wrote:
I am still continuing with Zichru, but while I am very fluent with the first 50+ dafim in Brachos, I am much less so with Shabbos. I am trying to find time to review, but right now it is so difficult . . . (I printed out all the Daf simanim, and I hope to find time to review them over Yom Tov. . .)

This is making me think I really need a printer again so I can learn and review without the audios.

amother [ Pumpkin ] wrote:

Thank you again to everyone who posts their thoughts here. While I may not always have time to write, it gives me chizuk to hear that others are learning, as well. Wishing everyone a Gutt Yom Tov with refu’os and yeshu’os - b’karov!


Amen!
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Apr 13 2020, 6:00 am
imorethanamother wrote:
You must be joking. Your "normal level" is way above mine. You seem to understand sources much better than I do, and even at my best I could never trace different shitas, EVER.

Did you grow up learning gemara? I know my sons will get this kind of education, where they will know how a Tanna would paskin based on previous texts, but it's all greek to me. (I guess pun intended)


Hey, you misunderstood me - that's what I *wish* I could do, not at all what I do.

When I was 17 I could just about struggle through a Rashi on Chumash. I grew up in a community with no Jewish high school and had a few after-school lessons a week with the kollel wives. I caught up big time in 2 years of seminary (we didn't do Gemara learning, but a fair amount of texts, including source sheets with Gemaras). Best thing I ever did for skills and bekius was Rashi on pasha every week for quite few years.
ETA I did it with תרגום אונקלוס as well which gave me basic Aramaic (though not enough to read real Aramaic Gemara sections alone).


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