Is this a fair punishment?

amother

Goldenrod

Mon, Mar 09 2020, 11:37 am

I think it's pretty obvious that this 3rd grader doesn't yet understand cause and effect- the relationship between his behavior and earning prizes,and therefore taking away what he does have is cruel.
I would keep him home and do a fun day with him instead. And try to figure out at which point in school he acts up. I've seen teachers with mini trampolines for kids who need a few minutes in the middle of class.

FranticFrummie

Mon, Mar 09 2020, 11:46 am

amother [ Blonde ] wrote:

FF, can we go on a campaign to teach schools about what anxiety looks like in kids so it can be diagnosed and treated instead of kids getting on these cycles of absences and misbehavior? It's crazy how many kids have come through my classroom where this ends up being the issue, but it's so mismanaged by the time they get to me that it's just worse and worse with heavy academic issues thrown in from lack of learning.

To be fair, I didn't know what childhood anxiety looked like, either. She'd been to the doctor dozens of times for headaches and stomach aches, and even vomiting, but nobody ever suggested anxiety. I had to learn on my own via the internet, that "school refusal" was a phobia, and not defiant behavior. I learned all of this on my own, and too late. No Jewish school in the area would let her in, because she got a bad name. SHE WAS ONLY 7 YEARS OLD! Banging head

I was in the process of getting her evaluated by the school district when she was expelled. They said they didn't want to accommodate her. I knew it was illegal, but they knew that I was a single mom with no yichus, and I wasn't paying full tuition. They held all the cards. Other kids who paid full tuition and had connections had no problem getting pull-out for half the day.

I think the biggest problem is the teachers who have no qualification. Her secular teacher loved her, but her rebbe had no experience. He was very young. He was in kollel, had several kids in the school, and would work for peanuts. Those were his main qualifications. Rolling Eyes

amother

Ecru

Mon, Mar 09 2020, 1:02 pm

Taking away the ones he already earned is unfair. He already has less than anyone else.

Honestly- as a school social worker knew deep with very challenging 3rd graders- you need the teacher on your side.

The teacher sounds overwhelmed, they need strategies and a plan/protocol for his behavior and reasonable expectations. The punitive punishment will not fix this.

I would keep him home from the carnival if you can, and give him a reasonably good time. Remind him you are ALWAYS on his team.

Moving forward, try to collab with the psychologist on a plan/ protocol to be implemented in school.

Does the school have support staff in the building?

#BestBubby

Mon, Mar 09 2020, 1:18 pm

OP, this punishment is unfair as a kid should not lose a reward he has earned or it will discourage him from bothering to earn reward in the future if it can be taken away. The teacher
should have given a different punishment. I would keep him home on Wednesday.

BUT your DS is a behavior problem. Meet with the teachers and make some behavior goals that are REALISTIC and your DS is capable of doing.

Example: For every hour that DS does not disrupt and does his work, DS receives a prize ticket. At the end of the day, DS receives a few jellybeans for each prize ticket DS earns.
It is important that DS receives his reward at end of the day and not have to wait a week or longer to get his reward.

mamma llama

Mon, Mar 09 2020, 1:48 pm

abound wrote:

I would try to figure out what is going wrong here. Generally teachers do know how to handle 3rd graders if your child cannot be handled then it is YOUR problem. Blaming the teachers is not going to help, Saying the child is not diagnosed with something is not going to help, you need to get your child diagnosed and give the teachers a plan for how to deal with it cuz they cannot. Its not a matter of if it is fair or not, it is a matter of it is not working and you need the teachers to realize that you are on the same page like them and working with them.

Whoa. Not every child needs to be diagnosed. Pushing diagnoses on every child who acts up will not help them in the long run. Can't Believe It

amother

Brown

Mon, Mar 09 2020, 2:05 pm

nchr wrote:

I would send the kid to school and let him deal with it. Even if I feel the teacher may have been unnecessarily harsh, that is part of what you encounter in life. Nothing is going to happen to him if he doesn't have carnival money, but something negative definitely will if he thinks I've sided with his poor behavior and have taken the fall to protect him when I don't need to.

1. Having something he earned taken from him is definitely teaching him something very damaging.

2. You can say "you're not doing what is expected of you. And we know that you know what the right thing to do is. We think you should have consequences. However we don't see you missing out on a school simchat Yom Tov being a good way to do it." It's shushan Purim. But we don't get chagim taken away from us as punishment. Maybe we get class pizza parties taken away. But not a school celebration of a chag. That's not appropriate. Or kind. Or fair. Or generous. Or even a teaching moment. Nope nope nope.

We can say that we don't trust you to follow rules or stay safe at this class trip so you need to come with your own grown up or stay at school. We can say this pizza party is for everyone that earns this many tickets. But not Purim. Nope.

SixOfWands

Mon, Mar 09 2020, 2:22 pm

nchr wrote:

I can tell you exactly what is going to happen. He's going to watch his friends having fun while he's being told that even though he EARNED some tickets, he doesn't get them, and he's going to act out. He has nothing to lose, after all; the teacher took it all away.

Its a cycle.

OP would not be siding with his behavior. He's still not getting the carnival with his friends. But she is siding with HIM, which he needs.

lilies

Mon, Mar 09 2020, 2:30 pm

nchr wrote:

A child is dependent on parents. This would cause a sever rupture in the parent-child relationship from an attachment perspective. It teaches the kid that adults are unfair, parents are passive to his pain, and the kid grows up too independent. Not able to allow for their human neediness of others for support and have a hard time forming relationships.
Would you keep working for an employer that treats you unfairly? That's life, deal with it.

polka dots

Mon, Mar 09 2020, 2:43 pm

Didn’t read all responses z

I think it has a lot to do with what the plan was. If the teacher said “for good behavior you get money for the carnival and when a kid misbehaves his money gets taken away” then I would have no issue with this situation.

But if the teacher just said that she is rewarding good behavior with money, then I don’t think it makes sense to take it away. You can’t take away the fact that he did something good to deserve his money. She can give him a different consequence for misbehavior.

amother

Ecru

Mon, Mar 09 2020, 3:19 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

All of this.

We have this all the time, I get called in because a student totally lost it. Then I hear that the teacher threatened or took away etc.

You don’t have to, and probably shouldn’t, go to bat with the teacher over this. But keep him home. Let him chill. Validate how bad it feels and come up with a plan for him to do better in the future.

nchr

Mon, Mar 09 2020, 4:53 pm

lilies wrote:

No, it does not sever the relationship.
Hi son, I understand that the teacher may have gone too far. This may be the only thing that she could think of, but we need to support what she feels is an appropriate punishment because we need to have respect for teachers and also make sure the other students in the class see that. It is not just about you, but about the entire class. I know it will be very hard, but it is just one day and you'll have other opportunities for other things. You'll be fine and let's try to work on ways to get you to behave appropriately.
And yes, sometimes I would work for an employer that treats me unfairly, depending on other circumstances. That is part of life. I don't get what you're saying.

lilies

Mon, Mar 09 2020, 5:00 pm

nchr wrote:

Typo - severe.
This response would only work for a child that generally does not find himself in these situations. One-time unfair scenario, a well-adjusted child with friends, doing well in school, positive school and home environment.
The same response for a child that has a hard time can be dangerous. These children must fight adversity at every point in their lives.

Why change jobs ever? Stick with the first job you get no matter the circumstances because life is hard and you can't escape it, can you?

amother

Mon, Mar 09 2020, 5:02 pm

OP here, thank you so much for all the replies they were very appreciated, a lot made me cry but also feel comforted and the ones with practical advice thank you!

I agree I need to get to the bottom of this and boy have I tried, I went to an educational psychologist (at quite a cost, I'm not in America and by us this is paid for privately and costs a ton, we are unfortunately not in the best financial situation and it was a real stress spending this money but we did to try get to the bottom of it.) The Edu Psychologist could find no reason behind behaviour and felt he just was not a typical in the box kid and needs to be approached differently.

TO those that say I'm blaming the teacher, at no point was I asking if I should approach teacher and have it out with her I just wanted to get opinions on what I could do to take this bad situation and do with it what is best for my child.
I have stood by the teachers always, supporting them and trying to work with them to get the results, we've done daily sticker books, Ive spoken to him and asked why to which he mostly replies he doesn't know, sometimes he says he's bored and he is super bright but he's not completing his work so then how can he be bored? I do think he has some OT (occupational therepy) issues as he doesn't like colouring in or writing for long, we have done OT in the past and was told he could stop but it may have been early and financially we just can't right now as my husband was retrenched 9 months ago and is yet to find something and we weren't so well off before. That being said I Google excersizes and do as much as I can with him (with a full time Job).
I did an online Cognitive Behavioral Therapy course in evening to see if I could use stuff from that to help him.

I really feel I am proactive and do just want what's best for him, that's what we all want right.

I'm not blaming the teacher but I do feel the education system as a whole does not cater for a kid that doesn't fit in a box, at least not the religious schools in our country.

For those that asked the religious schools here have no support staff as in no remideal or social workers.

I also have 4 other kids who also need a piece of me.

Any advice or lessons learned from your experiences are more than welcome. I appreciate the time taken to answer me.

amother

Mon, Mar 09 2020, 5:12 pm

FranticFrummie wrote:

OK, full disclosure here. Take everything I say with a grain of salt, because this is super triggering for me.

DD was your kid, and her behavior was caused by undiagnosed anxiety. The teachers said that she was "unteachable". She was EXPELLED from second grade (!) the day before the Purim party.

They would not let her come back to class one more day. They would not let her hug her teachers goodbye. They wouldn't even let her back in to get her favorite pencils.

What was her crime? Fidgeting and putting her head down on the desk when she felt overwhelmed.

Well, guess who's kid is OTD right now? She's a good kid, but wants nothing to do with Judaism. For her, Judaism means judgement, rejection, and misery.

She's 16 now, in therapy, on medication, and getting excellent grades in a secular school.

Teachers, kids do the best that they can, if you recognize how hard they are trying. Reward effort, not results, and you'll get even more effort from them. You hold their fate in your hands. At 120 Hashem is going to have you answer for all the neshamos that were in your care.

OP again, this made me cry, they are so little and are relying on us to be here for them, so yes while they need to behave correctly they also need to be loved and nurtured and know we are on their side