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Can everyone calm down and stop being mean and bossy?
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Maryann




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Mar 25 2020, 11:12 pm
small bean wrote:
In NJ the ban was put in originally until march 31. We will see on april 1.

If meds actually work like they are being reported to by doctors on the frontlines then a lockdown will be pointless


How do I find this info?
When is the ban in NY ending?
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amother




Powderblue
 

Post  Wed, Mar 25 2020, 11:28 pm
If you think the people here are mean and bossy at least no one has said "出门打断腿" ... https://supchina.com/2020/02/1.....hina/
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Mar 25 2020, 11:46 pm
I will admit to being mean and bossy but it is excusable because my opinion is always right.
I agree with the Bear that some situations carry a higher level of risk. For example, Medicare makes DH get his routine meds from CVS and they don't deliver so it's lower risk to use the drive through than to go to the store but riskier than staying home.
That being said, being at a table with other people, in close proximity and people are passing things around, and then we eat our bread with our hands, that is riskier than being a few feet away from them in a store.
It's all a matter of degree.
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tryinghard




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Mar 25 2020, 11:54 pm
small bean wrote:
First of all. There has been one study with 100 people and another with 40.

Dozens of people here in the US have been treated this way and are saying miracles in 24 hours.

Thirdly 1.25million people a year die in car accidents avg 3287 deaths a day. A lot more than 50 people.


To address these numbers - since you are quoting global numbers - today there were 2390 new deaths worldwide from Covid-19. That number will be higher tomorrow. This is is something called "exponential growth", where to the uninitiated the numbers seem to suddenly explode, while those who understand the pattern and know what to look for anticipated and predicted it. This is getting much much worse. Barring a miracle cure (or other neis, please Hashem!) there will be far more deaths from this than from car accidents this year (so many people staying home skews those numbers of course LOL ). You are comparing apples to oranges.

It's like the ridiculous meme a week ago comparing
1340 Covid-19 infections and 38 deaths
to
20 million SARS infections and 12,000 deaths

Saying that this is a major overreaction. When in reality, 1) the SARS numbers were over a year, and the Covid-19 numbers were several weeks, and 2) when you do the math, you come up with a VASTLY worse fatality rate and 3) the issue with this is just how infectious it is, and the high percentage of hospitalizations, resulting in a rush on the hospitals all at once, where they simply don't have the capacity to deal with it, raising the fatality rate.

Unfortunately, too many people realize way too late just how serious this is - and that while we are all intelligent and logical, we are not smarter than pretty much every medical professional out there.

The silver store thing bothered me so much. If it was a joke, it would almost be funny - but considering what is already happening in Boro Park and Crown Heights (and you ain't seen nothin' yet 😨 Hashem Yeracheim) it's horrible. More and more people are deathly ill, and this is still being "poo poo'd". It's a massive Chillul Hashem waiting for one [gentile] (or non frum Jew) who knows Yiddish to see it. Exactly the kind of thing that caused that anti-semitic incident in Monroe - and who can blame them? It's so so irresponsible and dangerous. So, great, the Jews are smarter than the dumb non jews who actually listen to the government and the doctors - the same doctors we are very willing to rely upon to save our loved ones! But for now, the doctors are overreacting, the yidden know better.
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Mama Bear




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Mar 26 2020, 12:26 am
imorethanamother wrote:
Source, please.

yeah, it doesnt make sense.
Of all the 100s of ppl in the hospital in my community, 2 are people under 50. One is a pregnant woman who had an emergency c section and the other one I'm not sure.
Everyone else is basically over 70, a few in the 60s.
Not that they deserve to be this sick, ch'v.
But it's impossible that 50% of HOSPITALIZATIONS are ppl under 50. 50% of diagnosed cases are ppl between 18-49. that makese sense.
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amother




Scarlet
 

Post  Thu, Mar 26 2020, 12:36 am
That is not the case in the hospital where I work. We have many patients under 50, and multiple deaths under 50. And the number of deaths keep increasing exponentially. I don't know if you are trying to prevent panic or giving people a false sense of security that they can continue to disregard quarantines, CDC recommend and rules which have been set in place for the safety of the community. Hey, if you are in your 40s, why not throw caution to the wind and travel for YT.
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amother




Jetblack
 

Post  Thu, Mar 26 2020, 1:10 am
tryinghard wrote:
The silver store thing bothered me so much. If it was a joke, it would almost be funny - but considering what is already happening in Boro Park and Crown Heights (and you ain't seen nothin' yet 😨 Hashem Yeracheim) it's horrible. More and more people are deathly ill, and this is still being "poo poo'd". It's a massive Chillul Hashem waiting for one [gentile] (or non frum Jew) who knows Yiddish to see it. Exactly the kind of thing that caused that anti-semitic incident in Monroe - and who can blame them? It's so so irresponsible and dangerous. So, great, the Jews are smarter than the dumb non jews who actually listen to the government and the doctors - the same doctors we are very willing to rely upon to save our loved ones! But for now, the doctors are overreacting, the yidden know better.

Leaving aside the rest of your post, the medical consensus in Crown Heights seems to be that most Crown Heightsers got it already. They feel that it was already going around BEFORE Purim and that Purim exposed pretty much everyone else. They're already telling people that if they got it they can and should take care of their elderly relatives who are still dealing with it.

I don't know why you say that they are not taking it seriously.
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imorethanamother




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Mar 26 2020, 1:49 am
amother [ Scarlet ] wrote:
That is not the case in the hospital where I work. We have many patients under 50, and multiple deaths under 50. And the number of deaths keep increasing exponentially. I don't know if you are trying to prevent panic or giving people a false sense of security that they can continue to disregard quarantines, CDC recommend and rules which have been set in place for the safety of the community. Hey, if you are in your 40s, why not throw caution to the wind and travel for YT.


First of all, which hospital do you work? Are you a nurse? Because other people on the front lines are not reporting this at all.

https://www.businessinsider.co.....020-3

In this article, https://www.nytimes.com/2020/0......html , you can clearly see that often it's the fear and panic, like the post you're writing right now? That sends thousands of New Yorkers to the emergency room, when they should be at home. Telling that EVERYONE IS GOING TO DIE!!!1111! is just not really helping. Measured responses are best, based on facts and not speculation.

In fact, the deaths are decreasing, says Cuomo. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/0......html

I think what we all have to understand is that this is for the long haul. People make calculated risks all the time. I risk it every time I go to the grocery. My husband risks it when he goes to his essential job. What people are going to realize is that this will be for a long time. Many states have already cancelled school for the remainder of the year - that's three months from now, and we know that camps will probably not open. That's another three months.

If I were a 40-something mother with a newly married, very sick daughter who has effectively quarantined herself and her husband, I'd tell them to come to me for Pesach. My single children are with me, why wouldn't they be? It's the same quarantined risk.
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ora_43




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Mar 26 2020, 2:40 am
Mama Bear wrote:
But it's impossible that 50% of HOSPITALIZATIONS are ppl under 50. 50% of diagnosed cases are ppl between 18-49. that makese sense.

I've seen 50% as the number, based on cases in part of Italy. More updated info from the US says 38%. But either way - it's completely true that hospitalization rates are high among younger patients, even though most eventually recover.

Source

And if in two weeks there aren't enough ventilators to go around, a 40-year-old being hospitalized will mean an 80-year-old dies. Look at Italy. Let's not be like Italy.
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ora_43




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Mar 26 2020, 2:49 am
Mama Bear wrote:
There honestly needs to be one big coronavirus thread so the same thing isnt discussed 85,000 times over and over.

Let me repeat.

THERE IS NOT A MILAN-STYLE LOCKDOWN IN THE U.S. OR IN NEW YORK.

If you don't want a stale repeat of other threads, don't post the same inaccurate information that exists on other threads.

The fact that police won't arrest you for visiting your parents doesn't mean that it isn't a terrible idea. Or that there aren't hundreds of doctors, political leaders, and rabbis begging people not to do that.

Quote:
If a 22 yr old wants to go to her 42 yr old parents for the seder, there's absolutely no reason to tar and feather her. She isnt going to her 62 year old mother. Or her 55 year old father who is a cancer survivor. She doesnt have an immunocompromised little brother. Etc. Some saichel should be used.

Saichel should be used, sure. The problem is, it needs to go hand and hand with an understanding of the illness, of hospitalization rates, and of the math of how infection spreads. All of which seem to be sadly lacking.

Cuomo has said that NY is going to need 30,000 more ventilators than it currently has, in just 2-3 weeks. If a 22 year old infects her 42-year-old parents, there's a 10%-20% chance that it will cause someone's death. Not her parents - but someone else's 62-year-old mother, or 80-year-old grandfather, or whoever else doesn't get a ventilator because her mother needed it.

That's not the kind of risk people should be taking unless spending the seder with their parents is literally a question of life or death.
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amother




Amethyst
 

Post  Thu, Mar 26 2020, 3:57 am
The sad fact seems to be that no matter how careful we think we are being and trying to be and are successfully being if families come together if someone is infected cvs and staying together all the more so then its almost inevitable that everyone there will be and will bring it back to their home community and so on.
The virus lives on inanimate surfaces and people are contagious two weeks before any symptoms!
This is a tremendous and unprecedented problem.
Thats why as much as I am against "nanny state' this is totally different this is a public health crisis that affects all of us.
Things will get better hopefully soon and the sooner we all do our part and take this seriously with all the restrictions and limitations the faster it will be over.
Wishing everyone a healthy Pesach Kasher v sameach!
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amother




Amethyst
 

Post  Thu, Mar 26 2020, 3:59 am
Ten at a wedding spaced out 6 feet apart ! and short!

not a week and half all in one house
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Cpg




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Mar 26 2020, 4:42 am
ora_43 wrote:
If a 22 year old infects her 42-year-old parents, there's a 10%-20% chance that it will cause someone's death. Not her parents - but someone else's 62-year-old mother, or 80-year-old grandfather, or whoever else doesn't get a ventilator because her mother needed it.


Something else to think about--although this is the way they've done it in Italy, it's not at all clear that we would handle the situation the same way in the US. Many medical ethicists feel that it is not correct to prioritize care for younger people. It's possible that a hospital will feel that it's wrong to disconnect someone from life support to save someone else, even if the first person is not guaranteed to improve. (BTW I think the halacha also is this way.) I've heard discussion of lottery systems to assign vents. It's not at all black and white. Lo aleinu, we shouldn't have to find out.

Also, 14-20% of people 20-44 with covid need to be hospitalized from the latest CDC data. If you're lax with social distancing and you contract covid, even as a 35yo, there's a 1/5 or 6 chance that you will wind up in the hospital. Taking a bed from someone else and making care worse for everyone around you. Heart attacks and appendicitis are not on pause because of covid--and their mortality rates will also go up as hospitals become more overwhelmed. (And strokes and head trauma and car accidents etc.)

And whether people like it or not, being in a hospital and having nurses and doctors take care of you (even with proper PPE, which they don't have) puts them at increased risk. Increased exposure is correlated with increased severity of disease. Doctors have literally stopped breastfeeding their babies and separated from their families to keep them from getting covid. And not for a short period of time either - - they know it could be until there's a vaccine. Can you imagine not touching your baby for 18 months? Because you're helping to save lives? You're on the front lines every day, not eating or stopping to drink so that you don't have to take off your mask. You're sleeping in the garage. You're exhausted. Even though 80% of cases are mild, you don't see them. You only see the worst ones. People are alone and most of the time you feel like there's nothing you can do but manage the vent and hope and pray and wait. You have to update people's families when they're getting worse, and the family is begging you to do something, anything. You have to tell people's families that they died without their loved ones nearby. You take care of these severely ill people, knowing that you could catch it any day. Watching your colleagues get sick. And you can't come home and vent to your spouse, or cry on his shoulder, or hug your kids. You just have to go home and be alone with your thoughts, and then wake up and head right back into the fray.

Yeah, I would think twice before I contribute to that person's misery by ignoring rabbonim and doctors and state health officials. But of course the beauty is, even if it's totally someone's fault and they get sick (CvS), first responders and doctors and nurses are still going to work really hard to save their life.
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carnation




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Mar 26 2020, 9:40 am
amother [ Coffee ] wrote:
Southern bubby
Refuah shlaima to your family.
And that is the point. Your family made choices based on your needs.
What If parents are younger and have a new couple with no kids,? The point is we need to be careful, very careful, but also have to stop yelling at others.


The thing is that this crisis would not have existed now at all, if ALL people of the whole world would have magically stayed in place (and in their homes 6 feet apart) starting about a month ago, for 2-3 weeks.

So we need to try to do anything and everything as best as possible and the closest to the above idea - to try to stay home as much as possible etc. Since we can't do as I wrote above, our extreme efforts will at least slow down the virus enough so that the healthcare system will at least be able to handle it.
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Simple1




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Mar 26 2020, 9:47 am
For those concerned about going against the rabbanim - one of the young couples I know who went OOT to their parents did ask a shaila if they should go and were advised they can leave asap and to quarantine for two weeks over there. They went last week. Obviously each individual should ask their own shaila.
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amother




Black
 

Post  Thu, Mar 26 2020, 10:00 am
Ladies, this is hard, BUT it will be way harder if you watch a loved going into the hospital with no family member next to them and c"v die there. Yes, young people have died.
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Mar 26 2020, 10:07 am
amother [ Black ] wrote:
Ladies, this is hard, BUT it will be way harder if you watch a loved going into the hospital with no family member next to them and c"v die there. Yes, young people have died.


There are also newborns of infected parents who can't have contact with their parents.
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amother




Blonde
 

Post  Thu, Mar 26 2020, 12:04 pm
Back to the OP's original post, I would give a comparison.

Imagine if a young lady politely entered a room and said, "Don't mind me, I'm just going to take this loaded gun and swing it around recklessly."

Everyone in the room might start yelling and screaming at her to stop.

Could she then complain that they are being "mean and bossy"?

No, no mater how polite she acted, and no matter how good her intentions, if she is endangering others you can fully expect them to get upset and tell her to stop.

What is "mean" is taking actions that endanger people's lives, not calling you out on it.
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small bean




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Mar 26 2020, 12:40 pm
Did you social distance iver the winter due to the flu? Because last week in the US 1k people died from the flu. Last week about 200 died from corona. You could have infected people all year when you went out and got together with family and friends and you didn't think twice.

I'm all for those who are sick to be normal and stay home. I'm all for quarantining all high risk groups. The rest of the world should be making their own choices and nobody has a right to criticize anyone free choice.

By the time pesach comes most frum in the tristate area will alreast have had it. There is no reason once you've had it to social distance. Everyone is free to decide for themsleves if they are fine with that.
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Mar 26 2020, 12:48 pm
small bean wrote:
Did you social distance iver the winter due to the flu? Because last week in the US 1k people died from the flu. Last week about 200 died from corona. You could have infected people all year when you went out and got together with family and friends and you didn't think twice.

I'm all for those who are sick to be normal and stay home. I'm all for quarantining all high risk groups. The rest of the world should be making their own choices and nobody has a right to criticize anyone free choice.

By the time pesach comes most frum in the tristate area will alreast have had it. There is no reason once you've had it to social distance. Everyone is free to decide for themsleves if they are fine with that.


There is a somewhat vaccine and medical treatment for the flu and it doesn't seem to be as contagious.
I am sure that everyone will decide for themselves but there are legal repercussions if someone knowingly spreads it and probably many chol ha moed attractions will still be closed.
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