This is what we were afraid of

amother

Wed, Apr 01 2020, 8:10 am

It's heartbreaking to read the stream of BDEs

And threads about patients dying in hospitals where nurses don't enter rooms because they lack the proper PPE or the time to change it

And threads about petitions begging for visitors to be allowed with Covid patients to ensure proper care

And I can't help thinking that some people still don't get it.

THIS IS WHAT THEY MEANT BY AN OVERLOADED HEALTHCARE SYSTEM

Covid itself is not as deadly as some other diseases we can think of, but many patients require intensive care, expensive equipment, and trained personnel in order to heal. Too many people who need this = a curve higher than the healthcare system can handle. More patients than the system can handle = more "unnecessary" deaths.

I keep thinking that there must be a better way to monitor loved ones that doesn't require allowing visitors in during a pandemic, which will make matters worse in some ways even if it helps in other ways. With all the tech available these days, we can surely think of something.

And more importantly, let's do whatever we can to reduce the load on the healthcare system, and that means stopping it from spreading to the percentage of people who are still uninfected, no matter how small that percentage may be where you happen to live. Because if that percentage gets infected, a percentage of that percentage will need healthcare and may not be able to get it. And that means more unnecessary death.

Just stay put.

ila

Wed, Apr 01 2020, 9:05 am

What aboud cameras? Would that be possible?

gande

Wed, Apr 01 2020, 9:18 am

I was hearing all this my heart breaks. Maybe they can get volunteers and train them into not such complicated jobs to give the nurses some relief. This situation is not fair to everyone involved.

amother

Wed, Apr 01 2020, 10:00 am

ila wrote:

What aboud cameras? Would that be possible?

I've tweeted the mayor, the governor, and anassemblyman. There ought to be a way to set up something like that, even if at patients' expense.

Rappel

Wed, Apr 01 2020, 10:09 am

gande wrote:

I was hearing all this my heart breaks. Maybe they can get volunteers and train them into not such complicated jobs to give the nurses some relief. This situation is not fair to everyone involved.

This is a great idea. Nursing assistant. They can do routine vital signs, baths, bathroom assistance, and answer basic calls from patients. Leave the nurses and doctors to administer actual treatment.

Elfrida

Wed, Apr 01 2020, 10:19 am

In England all the airline staff who no longer have jobs have been offered basic medical training to act as hospital assistants during the current crisis. I wish they would do something like that here.

Maybe asking (but not requiring) the Bnot Sherut who no longer have a teken to train as hospital assistants. There are a lot of people on chalat who would probably be willing to help as well. There just needs to be some structure to arrange it.

amother

Fuchsia

Wed, Apr 01 2020, 10:21 am

gande wrote:

I was hearing all this my heart breaks. Maybe they can get volunteers and train them into not such complicated jobs to give the nurses some relief. This situation is not fair to everyone involved.

There isn’t enough PPE for the healthcare providers, let alone volunteers.

They are having students to the paperwork in some hospitals to ease the drs workloads.

amother

Wed, Apr 01 2020, 10:23 am

There is also the problem of shortage of PPE. We can't send in volunteers without it.

That's why I'm thinking more along the lines of technology.

Perhaps once we can figure out how to test for immunity, which they're working on now.
But the testing and verification process will also stress an already stressed medical system.

asmileaday

Wed, Apr 01 2020, 10:30 am

I just told dh last night if ch"v a family member needs to be admitted we should insist on installing a nanny cam. He said the hospital will NEVER allow it.

amother

Cobalt

Wed, Apr 01 2020, 1:06 pm

I have a friend who's finishing PA school out of town. They're going to be graduating early and be certified as RNs to be able to start working in hospitals.

imorethanamother

Wed, Apr 01 2020, 1:20 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Look, I get that everyone thinks that they're The Keyboard Warrior here, fighting for justice and the American Way, but this has got to stop.

First of all, there are about 800 other posts here that say exactly this, so I'm not sure what you think needs to be said.

Second of all, here's the thing. The healthcare system around the world was already at full capacity. I mean, even before Covid, no one ever wanted to go to an ER with a toothache and wait for 17 hours, because that was the wait time. The hospitals had to balance:
a) Expensive doctors
b) expensive insurance
c) overpriced health supplies because monopoly and price-gouging (there are some excellent movies about this, including the guy who invented the retractable needle during the HIV crisis and the impenetrable wall he faced trying to get it to the hospitals that needed it).
d) not have lots of extra beds and staff lying around
e) PROFIT

And in countries with socialized medicine, you already have crazy wait times, etc etc.

So health experts have always said that a pandemic would bring the system crashing down. It doesn't matter if 10,000 or 100,000 or 1,000,000 extra people started showing up, it was always going to be like this. I'm an avid reader, so public health experts have said this for DECADES. This is nothing new. This only surprises anyone that wasn't paying attention.

And most importantly, this isn't your neighbor's fault. This isn't Joe Shmoe who went to play basketball's fault. That's why SARS and MERS and HIV and the Asian Flu caused a massive panic. There just isn't the resources. This is a virus, that infects like someone who's never seen the common cold, and behaves like the common cold in terms of infectivity. You get it from droplets in the air, for God's sakes.

I'm really tired of the aggrandizing posturing, of the fingers wagging. Can we stop blaming ordinary people for a health care system that wasn't working well in the first place? Or do you feel powerful telling other people "I told you so"?

amother

Lavender

Wed, Apr 01 2020, 1:44 pm

[quote="imorethanamother"]Look, I get that everyone thinks that they're The Keyboard Warrior here, fighting for justice and the American Way, but this has got to stop.

First of all, there are about 800 other posts here that say exactly this, so I'm not sure what you think needs to be said.

Second of all, here's the thing. The healthcare system around the world was already at full capacity. I mean, even before Covid, no one ever wanted to go to an ER with a toothache and wait for 17 hours, because that was the wait time. The hospitals had to balance:
a) Expensive doctors
b) expensive insurance
c) overpriced health supplies because monopoly and price-gouging (there are some excellent movies about this, including the guy who invented the retractable needle during the HIV crisis and the impenetrable wall he faced trying to get it to the hospitals that needed it).
d) not have lots of extra beds and staff lying around
e) PROFIT

And in countries with socialized medicine, you already have crazy wait times, etc etc.

So health experts have always said that a pandemic would bring the system crashing down. It doesn't matter if 10,000 or 100,000 or 1,000,000 extra people started showing up, it was always going to be like this. I'm an avid reader, so public health experts have said this for DECADES. This is nothing new. This only surprises anyone that wasn't paying attention.

And most importantly, this isn't your neighbor's fault. This isn't Joe Shmoe who went to play basketball's fault. That's why SARS and MERS and HIV and the Asian Flu caused a massive panic. There just isn't the resources. This is a virus, that infects like someone who's never seen the common cold, and behaves like the common cold in terms of infectivity. You get it from droplets in the air, for God's sakes.

I'm really tired of the aggrandizing posturing, of the fingers wagging. Can we stop blaming ordinary people for a health care system that wasn't working well in the first place? Or do you feel powerful telling other people "I told you so"?[/quote]

It seems that you're doing the bolded. You want to be the one touting that you read a lot have the answers. We all read a lot and have answers.

The fact the emergency rooms are a disaster is because we allow anyone to come im and get treated insurance or no insurance. They come in for ridiculous things like getting their toenails cut instead of paying a podiatrist. We take everyone in the emergency rooms. They can be here illegally, and can jam up our emergency rooms, so citizens can't get healthcare. It's bad in the big cities.

The hospitals aren't bad once you get rid of the non- emergency use of emergency rooms.

This doesn't mean OP's advice isn't good. Her advice is great. The best hospitals in ther world are in ther US.

amother

Goldenrod

Wed, Apr 01 2020, 2:06 pm

in my country the healthcare is subsidized,excellent and waiting time ER is about 2 hours max. and still people are dying. not so much as in usa. But still. Every human being is precious. Don't you think that we as humans do not have the key to life and death? yes do what the government says. venishmartem meod ... do it yourself and stop preaching.

ora_43

Wed, Apr 01 2020, 2:15 pm

imorethanamother wrote:

First of all, there are about 800 other posts here that say exactly this, so I'm not sure what you think needs to be said.

And another 800 talking about how things aren't really so bad, or how going to your parents' for Pesach isn't dangerous, or how people need to stop being so judgmental over little things like whether other people are obeying urgent health directives.

Come on, this isn't a one-sided thing in either direction.

Quote:

I'm really tired of the aggrandizing posturing, of the fingers wagging. Can we stop blaming ordinary people for a health care system that wasn't working well in the first place? Or do you feel powerful telling other people "I told you so"?

That's a really harsh reading of OP's post. Is it so hard to imagine that it might just be intended as a vent/PSA to a mostly supportive audience?

I didn't get a feeling of vindication or power from her post at all. Only the same mix of sadness and frustration that a lot of people are feeling these days.

amother

Wed, Apr 01 2020, 3:38 pm

I was reacting to the threads where posters are upset that people are dying from "neglect," or surprised that visitors aren't allowed, etc. Bashing hatzolah, of all people!

Not trying to reinvent the wheel. The title summarizes my point.

lilies

Wed, Apr 01 2020, 3:43 pm

asmileaday wrote:

I just told dh last night if ch"v a family member needs to be admitted we should insist on installing a nanny cam. He said the hospital will NEVER allow it.

What about the mandatory DNR being applied to all Covid-19 patients?

tweety1

Wed, Apr 01 2020, 4:28 pm

lilies wrote:

What about the mandatory DNR being applied to all Covid-19 patients?

This!! I'm horrified!! I'm petrified for every coved19 patient!!

imorethanamother

Wed, Apr 01 2020, 4:30 pm

amother [ Goldenrod ] wrote:

Did you really say that humans have the key to life and death?

imorethanamother

Wed, Apr 01 2020, 4:38 pm

ora_43 wrote:

Literally anyone that dares say anything like that on this website is immediately labelled with the most extreme language I've ever seen on this website. I mean, I've seen you on every thread being extremely vehement about this.

I've actually had half a thought to go on and start a thread like, 'I'm 76 years old, can I have my seventeen in-law children and their children over for Pesach?' just to watch people lose their absolute minds.

Also, I'm in touch with doctors that are nowhere near as extreme as some of the women on this website, and yet somehow they're totally wrong? The problem is that women are getting all their information from the most extreme sources on the internet.

For example - the theoretical blanket DNR? Is not in use, and was only discussed in Chicago. It's a hypothetical, but apparently the Washington Post wants to compete with readership from the NY Times, so that's a headline.

I'm not into panic and hysteria, and I think some people here thrive on it. And starting a thread about how "oh no the hospitals are falling apart and this is all everyone's fault!" is missing the part where this is a pandemic that's spread like the common cold and stays on surfaces for days. Did everyone think that this would hit five people and stop? Does anyone understand the meaning of "flatten the curve"?

amother

Wed, Apr 01 2020, 4:44 pm

lilies wrote:

What about the mandatory DNR being applied to all Covid-19 patients?

I went looking for info on this but I have not seen this reported as an actual policy anywhere, only that the topic had come up for discussion.

Similar with rationing ventilators. It's being reported as a topic of discussion, but the NYC mayor refuses to entertain the possibility when talking to reporters and claims there is no such official policy.