When this is over I'm out of here!

amother

Natural

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 3:01 am

amother [ Hotpink ] wrote:

I used to think like you, until I actually moved to Israel and lived there a while. Then I realized, I enjoyed things like civil rights, being treated respectfully by strangers (not being abused by random strangers on a daily basis), earning a descent salary, not working 6 days a week, having a nice and affordable house/apartment to live in and most of all Jewish unity!

.

I don't know where you lived in Israel. But I've been living here for years, and I have never been abused by random strangers on a daily basis. That is weird and unusual and hardly characteristic of Israel at all.

I earn a decent salary. I work 5 days a week (almost all places here have Fridays and Saturdays off). I live in a nice house. And it's all in Israel.

I feel like I have civil rights. I do think there is a great deal of improvement to be made in the involvement of the beit din in our lives, and in the field of agunot. But you have the same issues in the states, there are other laws there that need improvement. (In fact there are tons of US laws I think need to be revamped).

I don't think everyone belongs in Israel. But those who do move here definitely can live a good quality of life.

amother

Natural

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 3:12 am

amother [ Hotpink ] wrote:

The US is giving small business owners grants to keep us afloat during this crisis. The US gave a large stimulus package of $1,200 per adult plus $500 per child to most families. The US is also giving very low interest rate to small business owners to get through this economic crisis (not just bailing out large companies). In most US states we have a nice, good people and personal rights; we can homeschool if we want, it's easy to find a job, we can buy a car (car in Israel are more because taxes on cars are over 100%), it's easy to open a business (or you could always start a LLC registered in Delaware if your State has a lot of business regulation), we have much lower taxes than Israel, it's relatively easy to do well for yourself and get ahead, we have low bureaucracy (you won't wait 40 minutes at the bank to be served), we Jews for the most part get along with each other and our non-Jewish neighbors, no mandatory military or civil service, we can easily move to another State if we don't like our own and people generally treat each other well.

You are right that we got less stimulus packages here (500 NIS per child rather than dollars, etc). But we will see how this plays out long term. The US often gets itself into all sorts of 'bubble' situations where the economy isn't as strong as it seems. The Israeli economy and GNP is incredibly high and stable.
We also have nice, good people. We can also homeschool if we want. We have a lower rate of unemployment than the US (before the corona crisis, of course). It's 3.7 in Israel and 4.4 in the US. So where is it easier to find a job?
I agree with you it's harder to open a business here, as there are a lot of regulations. But millions do it. And I don't think bureaucracy is less in the US. All that tax filing and doing your own retirement funds etc etc..... a nightmare.
No mandatory military - well, yes. But it's an honor to serve your own country.

And you do know that people can move around Israel just as people can move around the States? In fact, Israel may be tiny but it is immensely diverse, in culture, geography, lifestyle, religion.

And people generally treat each other very well here too.
Again - I am not someone who thinks everyone needs to move here. But for those of us here, life can be very good. I see friends and family in the US and Canada and don't think any of them are living better lives.

amother

Hotpink

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 3:19 am

amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:

Yeah, there's a lot of push back when people read that. I hear you.

It always makes me sigh a bit cause - it's not like there's any guarantee if you DON'T make aliyah your teens will do perfectly fine.

No one else has your story. Many teens have made aliyah and thrived. I haven't done it so I can't counter the people who say it's a bad idea (my kids were born in Israel) but I've seen

- teens who made aliyah and did GREAT
- teens who made aliyah and had challenges
- native born Israeli teens who had challenges
~~- native born Israeli teens who were never a moment's worry for their parents, had perfect schools and perfect friends and later, perfect marriages and children.~~

Ha kol bayadei shamayim!

That's quite a jump from 'teens having challenges' 'to teens who aren't a moment's worry for their parents, have perfect schools and perfect friends'! I don't know any teens in the latter category, anywhere. But I know enough young women (from among my friends) who as teens who made aliyah with their parents. Some went back home in their early 20s, others had unhappy marriages (either married Israelis and the culture gap was too large or married Anglos who had adjustment issues) while the minority were able to fit in and thus did well (these are the ones who came before 9 or 10). What's interesting is that so many teens who develop issues in Israel (beyond typical teenage challenges) were by all indicators successful back home prior to making aliyah.

Nor did you mention that the overwhelming majority of Israeli teens fare well in their native culture, despite typical teenage challenges. Despite their challenges, these teens have the comfort of being in a familiar environment. Outsider teens not only have typical teenage challenges, but the additional ones of adjusting to a new culture/language/lifestyle in an unfamiliar environment. You can't compare the two circumstances.

How can parents not understand what pressure they place on their teenagers by making aliyah? Especially when the family experiences financial difficulties in Israel, and is by and large unable to solve their problems because of the language/cultural barriers and low availability of good jobs?

If however you're wealthy and can live the same quality of life you had back home, can pay for therapists to help your teens through the adjustment, can pay for private tutoring to get them up to speed with their Israeli peers, then your kids and teens certainly have a much better chance of making it in Israel.

amother

Hotpink

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 3:47 am

amother [ Natural ] wrote:

You make good points, but I want to comment further to clear up confusion about what I was trying to say.

Israel's reserves are kept almost entirely in the form of US dollars. So if the dollar takes a hit, at least the US still has its gold and natural resources. But Israel would be stuck holding the (worthless) bag of dollars. Part of the reason Israel has such an "incredibly high and stable" economy is because Israel receives foreign investment and aid. From where will Israel receive its foreign investment and aid if the US cannot afford to subsidize the Israeli economy? Would other economies come in and take America's place? Without American consumption and investment, many other economies would be severely distressed. Israel's property market is in a bubble, as the prices are not realistic compared to salaries. Virtually all homebuyers in Israel receive outside help before purchasing their homes or bring money from abroad.

It's not a question of whether Israel has nice and good people, because every place does. However, some Israeli companies advertise that they have "American service," meaning customers are well-taken care of, which says something about the prevailing attitude towards how one should treat people in Israel. The prevailing attitude in the US is to treat everyone well, and in Israel it's suspicion if not various degrees of hostility towards those from outside groups.

Israel has lower unemployment... but what quality are these jobs and how much do they pay? It's common knowledge that salaries in Israel are much lower than in the US, while prices for the same quality or better items (cars, houses, clothing, food, etc.) are higher. American jobs usually pay better. For example, senior software developers in Tel Aviv (if you are lucky enough to find such a job) earn around $6,000 per month, while in major US tech hubs $12,000-$20,000 per month is average. Lower paying jobs also pay better in the US too.

We pay a tax accountant to do our taxes for us. It costs $300 per year, but the write-offs and refund we receive are well worth it. As for our own retirement- well I certainly don't trust the government (any government) to manage my retirement account for me! We need to be responsible for our own investments, including retirement, and not blindly trust a government or brokerage firm to manage our money. In Israel there isn't a "retirement account" to speak of, but rather absurdly low pensions from Bituach Leumi. Anyone relying on that as their exclusive means of retirement funding is likely to live their latter years in want. And that's one more reason property prices are in a bubble in Israel; many Israelis purchase real estate, in hopes they'll earn a profit from the rental income, to subsidize their retirement years.

It might be an honor to serve one's country; I never said it wasn't. However, I want my children to be able to CHOOSE for themselves whether they prefer to accept that honour or not. I don't want a bureaucrat dictating to them where, for how long and under which conditions they should receive the 'honour' of serving their country.

I'm not if you think I said people can't move around Israel? The issue is not one of whether the government allows free movement, but whether by moving to a new State or Municipality or whatever, one can live under different laws. To illustrate: if I think bureaucracy and taxes are too high in New Jersey, I can move to Nevada, Florida or wherever. In Israel one doesn't have that advantage.

amother

Hotpink

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 3:55 am

amother [ Natural ] wrote:

Meanwhile Israel b'h has one of the lowest rates of fatalities from corona in the world. And NY has the highest.
Yeah, I prefer to keep people alive even if it means temporarily giving up rights like cellphone privacy.

"Temporarily" being the key assumption here. Perhaps this will be a temporary measure, but that's debatable. And aside, you make a false dichotomy by presenting the issue as a if it were a choice between "keeping everybody alive" and living under constant government surveillance. When in fact, it's not, and cellphone tracking is NOT going to "keep everybody alive." It might prevent some deaths, but let's not exaggerate.

Once people have been exposed to a virus, gone out and spread it, the damage has already been done. For the cellphone tracking app to work as we're lead to believe it's intended to, one would have to be be diagnosed prior having actually spread the virus. But by the time one is diagnosed and their contacts tracked, they have already infected others, who in turn go out and infect others more.

In all probability, this is just too good a crisis for the government to let go to waste.

amother

Natural

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 7:00 am

amother [ Hotpink ] wrote:

Israel's reserves are kept almost entirely in the form of US dollars. So if the dollar takes a hit, at least the US still has its gold and natural resources. But Israel would be stuck holding the (worthless) bag of dollars. Part of the reason Israel has such an "incredibly high and stable" economy is because Israel receives foreign investment and aid. From where will Israel receive its foreign investment and aid if the US cannot afford to subsidize the Israeli economy? Would other economies come in and take America's place? Without American consumption and investment, many other economies would be severely distressed. Israel's property market is in a bubble, as the prices are not realistic compared to salaries. Virtually all homebuyers in Israel receive outside help before purchasing their homes or bring money from abroad.

I am not an economist. Maybe someone more learned than me in the field can reply here. All I can say is that so far, Israel has weathered international crises a lot better than the US has. The US had a real estate bubble that blew up in its face. There was a recession around 2007; Israel continued to do fine.
Is Israel's property market a bubble? I don't think so. It's true that prices here are insanely high; but that's because of supply and demand. It's not like we have huge swathes of land to build upon.
In any case, so far real estate has always proved to be the best investment here. It just goes up and up.

amother

Natural

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 7:06 am

amother [ Hotpink ] wrote:

It's not a question of whether Israel has nice and good people, because every place does. However, some Israeli companies advertise that they have "American service," meaning customers are well-taken care of, which says something about the prevailing attitude towards how one should treat people in Israel. The prevailing attitude in the US is to treat everyone well, and in Israel it's suspicion if not various degrees of hostility towards those from outside groups.

Customer service in Israel has vastly improved over the last two decades. I haven't seen anyone advertise 'American service' for years and years. You are describing a situation that was true a decade or two ago.

In any case, Israel is in the Middle East, for better and for worse. While customer service has vastly improved here, you are still expected to be somewhat assertive. If someone really needs American style service, then they may want to stay in America. Personally, whenever I visit America I am often frustrated by the service - it takes so long! Some clerks/cashiers work as if they have all day. I am used to things being done chik-chak. So every place has its pluses and minuses.

amother

Natural

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 7:16 am

amother [ Hotpink ] wrote:

W In Israel there isn't a "retirement account" to speak of, but rather absurdly low pensions from Bituach Leumi. Anyone relying on that as their exclusive means of retirement funding is likely to live their latter years in want. And that's one more reason property prices are in a bubble in Israel; many Israelis purchase real estate, in hopes they'll earn a profit from the rental income, to subsidize their retirement years.

Who is depending on a pension from bituach leumi? Everyone who has worked over their life has private pension funds. If you are a שכיר it comes straight off your salary, and you can choose which fund to use. If you are an 'independent'/freelancer, you need to do it yourself.

There are all kinds of different pensions - the old timers have better conditions. But any one who has worked a normal job over his lifespan is not waiting for the measly stipend that bituach leumi gives. That's an extra.

The bituach leumi never was meant to function as a pension, it's just a קצבת זקנה. Everyone gets it, regardless if you worked or not.

As for the real estate bubble you keep alluding to - the banks here are a lot more stringent in loaning out money than the banks in the States. I doubt we will get to a point like the States did when their bubble burst. People here can pay for the houses they bought (yes, very often they get help with the downpayment from their parents).

amother

Natural

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 7:28 am

amother [ Hotpink ] wrote:

I'm not if you think I said people can't move around Israel? The issue is not one of whether the government allows free movement, but whether by moving to a new State or Municipality or whatever, one can live under different laws. To illustrate: if I think bureaucracy and taxes are too high in New Jersey, I can move to Nevada, Florida or wherever. In Israel one doesn't have that advantage.

Oh, ok. I thought you meant that you can move around the States if you want a different lifestyle. Because Israel also has that option - every area is very different than the next, and if you live in Tel Aviv it is very different than Tiberias which is very different than Efrat, etc etc.

If you just meant that you can move around in order to change laws, well obviously Israel is too small for that. But really, how many people do you know who more around the States because they want to live under different laws? (Property taxes in Israel, like in the States, are very different in different parts of the country. I'm not talking about wanting lower property taxes, but other laws/policies).

Look, Israel has a million disadvantages. But to paint it all black is ridiculous. If you look at the Human Development Index, the US is number 15 in the world and we are number 22. And our annual rate of improvement is over twice that of the US. At this rate, in a few years we will surpass the US, be'ezrat Hashem. Not bad for a country that is so young, and that has faced so many incredible challenges.

amother

Chartreuse

Tue, May 19 2020, 3:43 pm

amother [ Wheat ] wrote:

Those that go willingly PRE-MASHIACH will be better off

The in gathering is a slow process but one day we’ll wake up and feel like it’s always been like this
The way we have internet now

Only my opinion
BTW- I live in the US, but would love to make Aliyah
Financially I don’t think it’s possible without sacrificing and that’s where I’m not ready.
I’m 52, DH 55, NO KIDS AT HOME.
So the struggle will be not wanting to leave my “luxuries” behind
I know I sound like Lots wife and we know what happened to her.

To Wheat: Speak of waking up, I actually woke up long ago to the handwriting on the wall, and am in total agreement with you about "pre-Mashiach", and if it's any consolation, I'm probably in a much worse position than you, healthwise & financially. Also I'm nearly a decade older. And because of that, and due to mazal, that's what had been holding me back, but I'm rethinking my position anyway, because what bodes in the US is beyond contemplating. Everyone thinks it's mainly those with means who are faced with an excruciating life-change decision. Well from my vantage point, it's just the opposite. Because those without proper means & proper-mobility, can you imagine how on earth we'd be able to swing it? Can you imagine a life where it takes a long time just to set up your tax-guzzling, maintenance-guzzling, money-pit house into some semblance of livability and survivability (while a huge populace of strapping/carefree youth surrounding you are thrumming with vitality and carelessness)? Can you imagine with your measly strength steadily accumulating non-luxury stuff which are more for practicality, than luxury - and then in the end it comes to this?

So... if I would have had the sort of ready cash which a significant chunk of Americans have, trust me when I say that I'd have settled for good in Israel long ago, no sweat, no big deal. And I actually did try, long ago, to do just that. I tried & tried, but it was the money-aspect and mazal which thwarted it. I won't elaborate, too painful. But if I had means? What's the big deal? After all, I'd in any case be able to fly to whichever exotic locale I want for Pesach, yada yada. As for pensions, what a joke. When you're chronically unwell, you can't easily work, you're alone, you have next to nothing by today's standards. You're like the ones depicted in Neuberger's 2020 Vision, the less-mobile seniors who were left behind in the U.S. Enough said, except for one more thing, to anyone reading: "Take nothing for granted".