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Forum -> Chinuch, Education & Schooling
Kiruv couples whose kids choose a different derech
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amother
OP


 

Post Tue, Apr 28 2020, 10:11 pm
Do you know wonderful, solid, inspiring kiruv families where all or most of the kids have chosen a different (more modern) derech than their parents? I was just thinking about how I know at least 4 families like that. It's not unusual in non-kiruv families for one or two kids to become more modern, but having all or almost all the kids become modern is something I've only seen in (some) kiruv families.

I'm wondering if I'm wrong and such a thing does happen in other kinds of families.

I'm also wondering why it happens.

Random topic but I'm up late with anxiety and am trying to distract myself from my worries.
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amother
Green


 

Post Tue, Apr 28 2020, 10:30 pm
Once of the most inspiring rabbis I've known dedicated himself to working with youth. I taught under him. Two of his own children, now adults, are OTD. They later said it was because the rabbi had no time left for his own kids.
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heidi




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 28 2020, 10:47 pm
It's such a complex issue.
I know some dati leumi families who have 2 or more kids OTD.
So you'll say it's because the family made aliyah. But no, actually these kids were born in Israel. So was the family too strict? Too open? Parents unavailable? Parents too accommodating?
Bottom line is there's no one reason kids go off the derech. We can only do our best with our own children and try not to judge other people's parenting.
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essie14




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 28 2020, 10:56 pm
heidi wrote:
It's such a complex issue.
I know some dati leumi families who have 2 or more kids OTD.
So you'll say it's because the family made aliyah. But no, actually these kids were born in Israel. So was the family too strict? Too open? Parents unavailable? Parents too accommodating?
Bottom line is there's no one reason kids go off the derech. We can only do our best with our own children and try not to judge other people's parenting.

I do not judge anyone else's parenting.
I hate how people blame aliyah for their or other people's kids becoming non-religious.
In fact, I believe it's better to live in Israel because your child will almost certainly marry Jewish. I know many people who likely could have married a non Jew if they would have stayed in ch"ul.
There are so many reasons why a child would become non religious. There's no magic answer for parents to follow to ensure that their kids stay religious.
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CiCi




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 28 2020, 11:20 pm
Wake up people! It's 2020, not 1985. When you invite all kinds of secular people who may be LGTB or people with gender dysphoria whom you'd never know they are of opposite gender than they present themselves, until you do realize... and people who may speak in appropriately and dress inappropriately at a Shabbos table, week after week after week...you don't realize that this can have a devastating effect on children?

I think we should do kiruv with our own families and take care of children from our own communities who can use a warm heart and a place where to turn to.
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grace413




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 28 2020, 11:25 pm
What essie14 said.
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amother
Pearl


 

Post Tue, Apr 28 2020, 11:30 pm
Maybe these kids were just exposed to different kinds of Judaism and found a derech more appropriate to them. It happens.
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essie14




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 29 2020, 12:18 am
amother [ Pearl ] wrote:
Maybe these kids were just exposed to different kinds of Judaism and found a derech more appropriate to them. It happens.

It also happens that people make their own decisions without being "exposed"
As I said, theres no magical formula. You can "do everything right" as a parent (whatever that even means) and your kids can still make their own decisions in life.
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amother
Indigo


 

Post Wed, Apr 29 2020, 12:36 am
amother [ Green ] wrote:
Once of the most inspiring rabbis I've known dedicated himself to working with youth. I taught under him. Two of his own children, now adults, are OTD. They later said it was because the rabbi had no time left for his own kids.


This is so sad.
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amother
Tangerine


 

Post Wed, Apr 29 2020, 12:41 am
Please bear in mind that some of these Kiruv couples may themselves have become frummer over the years, so the kids who grew up in a less religious household might not be on board with their parents' choices. (Something I have seen in several non-Kiruv households).
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amother
Forestgreen


 

Post Wed, Apr 29 2020, 1:13 am
I grew up in a kiruv home and know many many kiruv families.
First of all I think Op is talking about cases where out of a large family ALL the children choose a different derech. One or two wouldn't be significant- its specifically ALL and it something that seems to happen in a lot of kiruv familes.

I believe it usually has to do with how kiruv is done, sometimes people in kiruv have a superior attitude towards the rest of the frum community, and sometimes in kiruv people will try to make yiddeshkeit sound more palatable to the secular leftist crowds in ways that are not excepted by the frum "establishment" and then then the kids get sent to school and are exposed to the more typical view on things they get turned off....
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amother
Royalblue


 

Post Wed, Apr 29 2020, 3:38 am
Does "more modern" mean OTD?
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byisrael




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 29 2020, 4:06 am
No
It is just interested when people in kiruv who inspire hundred to live a certain life have children who don't follow that same path
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 29 2020, 5:06 am
There's such a wide range of kiruv families. On the extremes, I've seen kiruv couples who really push the boundaries of what's acceptable themselves (going to drunken parties to be m'karev), and kiruv couples who are very strict about everything - eg, the Shabbat meal will be exactly 2.5 hours long, the dvar Torah will be 30 minutes and in Hebrew (there will be no translation), and no water will be provided because the Rambam said people shouldn't drink water and eat food at the same time. And then most people are somewhere in the middle.

So the range of reasons children of kiruv couples have for not following their parents' derech, if they don't, is probably similarly broad.

I actually do know non-kiruv families where all or most kids are OTD. I think there are a couple of similar factors, though.

Parents are accepting - if your parents are warm, accepting people, you might be less afraid to leave your family's derech. Not saying that's a bad thing.

(there are also parents who seem nice, but are so mean or neglectful to their own kids that they drive them away - I do know a (non-kiruv) family where that was the case, and most of the kids are OTD, but most families I know with mostly-not-frum kids are perfectly nice)

Not culturally frum - there's keeping mitzvot, and then there's feeling at home in a specific frum community. For a kid raised frum in a non-frum area - or for that matter, for an Israeli kid raised in an American household, since heidi mentioned it - it can sometimes happen that they don't have that second thing. They're frum, and they mostly fit in to frum culture - but not 100%.

Some people aren't bothered by that at all, some are. And some go find a community where they do fit in culturally, and change their mitzva observance to match.

(Not that anyone is actually thinking to themselves, "hmm, I have Muslim friends and like Parks & Rec, so I guess I should probably stop keeping chalav Yisrael." But from what I've seen, I think it's a factor. And again, not saying it's necessarily a bad thing; I'm an immigrant myself.)

(and then FFBs in FFB neighborhoods have the same factor in the opposite direction; some aren't really frum but play the part because they're culturally frum and want to stay where they feel at home.)
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Hillery




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 29 2020, 5:48 am
CiCi wrote:
Wake up people! It's 2020, not 1985. When you invite all kinds of secular people who may be LGTB or people with gender dysphoria whom you'd never know they are of opposite gender than they present themselves, until you do realize... and people who may speak in appropriately and dress inappropriately at a Shabbos table, week after week after week...you don't realize that this can have a devastating effect on children?

I think we should do kiruv with our own families and take care of children from our own communities who can use a warm heart and a place where to turn to.


This is very true. Rarely, if ever, do you see people who have open house policies, whose children haven't been affected negatively. Perhaps there is something to be said for not being so tolerant and accepting of anyone who doesn't behave torahdig, least not in order to keep your own family on the right path.

Here in SH I can think offhand of a few people who were mekarev every bum and allowed everyone through their doors, and their families were severely affected.
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amother
Babypink


 

Post Wed, Apr 29 2020, 5:57 am
No one should ever judge anyone if their kids make different choices than they did.

When I was growing up, my oldest sibling chose a different path than my parents (not OTD, but more modern.) I remember a certain neighbor who made sure to make hurtful, judging comments to my mother. Like "how do you let your child do XYZ?" (you think my mother had a choice in the matter....) and things like that.

(My parents got advice from a Gadol that they followed as best as they could. Our family is close to my sibling, till today. All of this, BTW, happened about 30 years ago.)

Anyway....said lovely neighbor has more than one child today who is totally OTD. I wonder why she let them?......
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watergirl




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 29 2020, 5:58 am
CiCi wrote:
Wake up people! It's 2020, not 1985. When you invite all kinds of secular people who may be LGTB or people with gender dysphoria whom you'd never know they are of opposite gender than they present themselves, until you do realize... and people who may speak in appropriately and dress inappropriately at a Shabbos table, week after week after week...you don't realize that this can have a devastating effect on children?

I think we should do kiruv with our own families and take care of children from our own communities who can use a warm heart and a place where to turn to.

I think you have a lot to learn about the kiruv movement in general. A small reminder: Avraham Avinu welcomed in much worse than who you mention above to his tent.

But if you truly feel that reaching out to all unaffiliated Jews or Jews who are affiliated but not with Torah true Judaism... give it 2 generations and you can say goodbye to the future of our religion.
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amother
Babypink


 

Post Wed, Apr 29 2020, 5:59 am
Hillery wrote:
This is very true. Rarely, if ever, do you see people who have open house policies, whose children haven't been affected negatively. Perhaps there is something to be said for not being so tolerant and accepting of anyone who doesn't behave torahdig, least not in order to keep your own family on the right path.

Here in SH I can think offhand of a few people who were mekarev every bum and allowed everyone through their doors, and their families were severely affected.


What a lovely way to refer to what I assume is a yiddishe neshama.
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Hillery




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 29 2020, 6:04 am
watergirl wrote:
I think you have a lot to learn about the kiruv movement in general. A small reminder: Avraham Avinu welcomed in much worse than who you mention above to his tent.

But if you truly feel that reaching out to all unaffiliated Jews or Jews who are affiliated but not with Torah true Judaism... give it 2 generations and you can say goodbye to the future of our religion.


Leaving aside the absurdity of comparing modern day families to Avraham Avinu, you might want to consider how most of AA's children turned out.
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watergirl




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 29 2020, 6:10 am
Hillery wrote:
This is very true. Rarely, if ever, do you see people who have open house policies, whose children haven't been affected negatively. Perhaps there is something to be said for not being so tolerant and accepting of anyone who doesn't behave torahdig, least not in order to keep your own family on the right path.

Here in SH I can think offhand of a few people who were mekarev every bum and allowed everyone through their doors, and their families were severely affected.


I need to stop being shocked by the tone of your posts in general, as you seem to write for shock value. But I will say this. Not every couple who is in kiruv should be. Most never go through any sort of training at all. Many people who are "in kiruv" should not be. There is a balance and a delicate dance to kiruv life and family life. Not everyone can do it or should do it.

As to the way you are brazenly referring to yiddishe neshamos as "bums", well, that speaks more about you than it does to the holy "bums" who seek truth and Torah.
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