Has anyone you know changed their mind

amother

Silver

Thu, May 07 2020, 10:25 am

amother [ Lemon ] wrote:

You probably don't realize it and you definitely don't mean it, but you're coming off as very patronizing. You never gave her credibility in the first place, so what are you talking about losing it?
You were in the cult and escaped. Now you have to open up everyone's eyes to the light.
When you were antivax you had to spread the light to people to stop vaxxing, now you have to spread the light to people to start vaxxing.

Alot of statements you and others are making are based on your very limited view, possibly affected by the people you associate with and the type of person you are.
Until last year June I had no clue that so many people don't vax. I found out that 6/20 children in my DC class weren't vaccinated. None of them fit into the stereotypes you and others are painting.
There was something wrong with your model: Not with people who don't vaccinate.

A large percentage of people in NY I know who started vaccinating chose between a rock and hard place, (and the people who didn't start vaccinating also chose between a rock and a hard place). They didn't spread rhetoric before they vaccinated, and they aren't spreading rhetoric now that that aren't vaccinating.

And, this is not directed to amother Silver, but to many posters. There's plenty I can argue against most points brought here, both from halachic sources and secular, on both sides of the pro and anti equation, some of them which makes so little sense its beyond ludicrous. Anyone who is thinking just a drop critically will pick up on it, but of course you just want to spread your rhetoric, so don't think.

Patronizing is pretending you can write out my experience. Sorry but you are off base. I don't need to spread the light, not before and not now. I'm pointing out that if you repeat antivax rhetoric it doesn't make you smarter. It makes people roll their eyes.
There were many children left without schools in nys, mostly special needs. I'm against the forced vaccination, that goes without saying. There are always exceptions to the rule when you deal with people.
I would be the happiest person in the world to not have to vaccinate. But until moshiach comes this is the world we live in.
I have no rhetoric to spread, not antivax and not provax. I easily recognize both because of how many years I've been on this issue. I have 0 interest in getting people to vaccinate or not, I care for my children and you care for yours.
Now I'm turning my attention to what the Torah says, as a mainstream Jew. I put some sources down.
Feel free to read or disregard as suits you. But if you spout vaxtruth or dr mendelsohn, I'll call it what it is.

amother

Lemon

Thu, May 07 2020, 10:26 am

amother [ Seashell ] wrote:

Asking seriously.

what are the hashkafic alternates to "listen to your dr and have bitachon that all will be good"

If you are serious enough, I would email you passages and sources. It will take time and effort for me and DH to look it up, scan them and email, so please only ask this of me if you are seriously interested. If you are, I'll be happy to do it for you.
You're not going to get a statement of "Never listen to your doctor. He's a crook and only has his own money in mind". But there are very strong statements in Igeros Moshe about the veracity of doctors, both in relation to vaccinations and other areas.
There are many references in Shevet Halevi about not trusting/following doctors orders.
And again, there are more that I can look up if you're seriously interested.

amother

Thu, May 07 2020, 10:28 am

amother [ Silver ] wrote:

so youre still essentially antivax? irl you couldnt remain antivax in action because of the law but seems like you dont believe in the product so your still antivax in beliefs. you sound like me, you dont need to believe all conspiracy theories to be antivax

amother

Lemon

Thu, May 07 2020, 10:32 am

amother [ Silver ] wrote:

1. Well, that is exactly what you're doing in this thread. You also mentioned having or leading a group of anti vaxxers, so what does that mean?
The people in my life who don't vaccinate don't have groups and don't talk about these things. As I said, I only found out about so many people who don't vaccinate this past year.
2. I agree with you beyond a million percent. Which is why I'm not doing it on this thread and I never did it IRL.
3. Torah has so many facets, and so many hashkafos. I haven't seen one unified statement about this as I have about things like internet asifa, daf yomi, etc. (and even those aren't universal across mainstream Judiasm, but they're comprised of many groups. In medical and vaccination, I haven't found anything like that at all.)
4. Talk about stereotypes and rhetoric Wink

I have absolutely no clue what these references are.
ETA: I don't mean to attack. My apologies if it came across that way. I know this is a very complex topic with so many intricacies, and its so easy for things to come out the wrong way or be misunderstood. I'm pointing out what I read, but I may have understood wrong.

amother

Seashell

Thu, May 07 2020, 10:38 am

amother [ Lemon ] wrote:

If you are serious enough, I would email you passages and sources. It will take time and effort for me and DH to look it up, scan them and email, so please only ask this of me if you are seriously interested. If you are, I'll be happy to do it for you.
You're not going to get a statement of "Never listen to your doctor. He's a crook and only has his own money in mind". But there are very strong statements in Igeros Moshe about the veracity of doctors, both in relation to vaccinations and other areas.
There are many references in Shevet Halevi about not trusting following doctors orders.
And again, there are more that I can look up if you're seriously interested.

I don't want passages and sources. I trust that you are following your hashkafa - so I'm looking for a basic understanding of what that hashkafa is - specifically with the topic of health.

amother

Lemon

Thu, May 07 2020, 10:50 am

amother [ Seashell ] wrote:

I don't want passages and sources. I trust that you are following your hashkafa - so I'm looking for a basic understanding of what that hashkafa is - specifically with the topic of health.

I am a bit spent from this discussion and I don't want pointless debate where people will misconstrue what I wrote, or pick on pieces that I mistakenly didn't write, so I'll go very, very brief.
I don't know if you want to call it hashkafa or way of life, but my belief is that we take care of our bodies as best as we can without intervention. A healthy lifestyle is my default protection. I will not inject or orally take something unless I am believe it belongs in my body (sometimes I lost the battle with food, lol).
When something isn't working, I try to see if I can understand why not. Do I need more sleep? More of a specific vitamin? More excersize? Can I wait it out a day or two, or does it need immediate attention? What is the underlying issue?
When there is an issue we run into that might need medical intervention, we do not go to alternative practitioners. I'd go to my regular doctor, discuss the options, and then take it from there. If I need a specialist, I would see a specialist. If treatment plan is invasive, I'd possibly go for a second opinion, and evaluate options then.
BH the last paragraph is theoretical.
The hashkafa aspect is too complex for me to do in a nutshell, and I'd really need DH's help to make sure that I got it 100% right. As I said I'm happy to do it for real tachlis, but I need to be convinced that it is tachlis since it will take a lot of time and effort for me and DH.

amother

Seashell

Thu, May 07 2020, 11:10 am

amother [ Lemon ] wrote:

I am a bit spent from this discussion and I don't want pointless debate where people will misconstrue what I wrote, or pick on pieces that I mistakenly didn't write, so I'll go very, very brief.
I don't know if you want to call it hashkafa or way of life, but my belief is that we take care of our bodies as best as we can without intervention. A healthy lifestyle is my default protection.
When there is an issue we run into that might need medical intervention, we do not go to alternative practitioners. I'd go to my regular doctor, discuss the options, and then take it from there. If I need a specialist, I would see a specialist. If treatment plan is invasive, I'd possibly go for a second opinion, and evaluate options then.
BH the last paragraph is theoretical.
The hashkafa aspect is too complex for me to do in a nutshell, and I'd really need DH's help to make sure that I got it 100% right. As I said I'm happy to do it for real tachlis, but I need to be convinced that it is tachlis since it will take a lot of time and effort for me and DH.

Okay.

I'm personally not looking for debate.

I personally understood that "we take care of our bodies as best as we can without intervention" is outside of mainstream Judaism, but if there is hashkafic support for it, I've learned something new.

I don't want you to expend any more energy on this.

amother

Thu, May 07 2020, 11:17 am

amother [ Silver ] wrote:

Let's just say I'm not naive.
I would have never vaccinated if not forced to but now that I did I realize most of the antivax rhetoric is terribly misleading.
If someone says I can't vaccinate because of specific genetic medical issues, I support that. Medicine can't be one size fits all. For most people it's okay and an exception is just that.

of course you need to use your brain and sift through things so now you came to the ocnclusion that using your brain is important on both sides of the debate? yay. I dont see how that makes you no longer antivax but whatever, feel free to call yourself whatever you want
there are three groups of ppl I know 1)antivax they dont believe in vaccines and whether they vax or not is irrelevant 2) provax they believe in vaccines and willingly give them 3)ppl who vaccinate b/c thats what their doc says to do, they dont know much either way , might have heard about vaccine injury but still they realize most ppl vax and are fine so thats what they do cuz its easier and simpler
you didnt go from cat 1 to 2 as you tried to say in ur first post on this thread

amother

Seashell

Thu, May 07 2020, 11:34 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

What does it mean to "believe in vaccines"? Its very ambiguous.

amother

Ivory

Thu, May 07 2020, 11:46 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

your logic doesnt make sense . where I live my child wont definitely be exposed to diptheria polio tetanus measles mumps rubella hepatis b haemophilus influenzae and pneumococcal bacteria, maybe some of htem but with vaccines hes getting them all multiple times.

That's something you're assuming. And the only reason those diseases aren't going around every year is because herd immunity is high enough - meaning, you are relying on everyone else to vaccinate their children, so that yours don't get sick (and don't have to be vaccinated).

But just for your information - tetatnus and diphtheria are naturally-occurring and you cannot control whether your child is exposed. Children get tetanus every year, it occurs naturally in soil. Diphtheria hangs around, it kills 5-10% of infected individuals, and it's not really something you can control for.

Rubella is pretty rare nowadays in the US, that's true.

Measles, mumps, HepB - yes, they all DO go around. You don't see "outbreaks" of HepB because it doesn't appear as a rash and not everyone who has it is symptomatic, and when symptoms appear, they take at least 6 weeks (average is three months) to appear. But if your child is ever in a social setting and shares water bottles, razors, or a toothbrush with others, or isn't careful about washing hands after the bathroom, your child may well be exposed to HepB.
Measles and mumps, every few years there is an outbreak. Because these diseases are airborne and cause visible symptoms relatively quickly, we notice the outbreaks more.

HiB and pneumococcal bacteria, true they aren't seen often, but they too are seen every single year and people die of them, in the US and other developed countries, every year.

Also I don't think you can say that your child "definitely" won't be exposed. The world is a global village, people travel all around the world and then come back carrying the germs they brought with them. It's true that most travelers are vaccinated and therefore aren't carriers of these diseases, but it's absolutely not true to say that unvaccinated people, and anti-vaxxers, don't travel. They do, they just don't get the vaccinations recommended for a given location before they travel there. It was anti-vaxxers who started the 2018 measles outbreak and it is safe to say that if someone unvaccinated travels to a place where a given disease is endemic, he will come back a carrier and spread it to whoever isn't immune. Because of the high frequency of international travel, including on flights with stopovers (where people from other locations may board), it really makes no sense to believe that your children will "definitely" not contract the disease and that the equation is vaccine with risk, vs no exposure at all and no risk at all. That may have been true 20 years ago, when almost everyone did vaccinate or had had the diseases in question. But the number of unvaccinated individuals has grown by leaps and bounds since then, and herd immunity has taken a significant hit (overall, but especially in some areas), plus the rate of international travel has skyrocketed. It would definitely be nice if the equation were vaccination with risk, versus no vaccination, no exposure, and no risk. And if that were the case, I would definitely skip the vaccines. But that's not the case today and it is foolish to believe that it is.

No, they aren't getting the diseases multiple times when they receive the vaccinations. First of all, because each dose is much lower and less deadly than in real life. Secondly, almost all adverse effects appear after the first dose; the risk of adverse effects or vaccine injury after a 2nd or 3rd dose, if there were no adverse reactions after a first dose (regular fever doesn't count), drops significantly. Kind of like it's true that anyone can become allergic to peanuts out of the blue, but if your child has had peanut butter a few times with no reaction (either immediate or delayed) then the chance of a sudden allergic reaction to peanut butter when it is offered by the babysitter is practically nil.

amother

Silver

Thu, May 07 2020, 12:37 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Now you know another kind of person. I was your number 3 in the beginning. Then I changed to number 1. Now I'm number 4. I've gone through both sides thoroughly and I've arrived at the truth. The truth is just like we're told, a dr is a shliach and we should listen to our drs.
The Rabbonim say this very clearly. I didn't want to accept it and now I'm ready to. Because I see how the antivax drs and sites and info and "proofs" are really just nothing. Anything can be presented a certain way in order to prove something.

Apparently there is more than one antivax crowd. If they don't know what vaxtruth and who dr mendelsohn are then they are 30-50 years behind the times. They are probably hearing quotes passed on from person to person originally from these sources and don't know where they came from. Or like I said previously, they rely on their and their neighbor's gut instinct and not much more.

The way I got trapped into thinking that antivax has the answers is because every time a question is asked about vaccines, the only response from govt officials or drs is: "vaccines are safe and effective."
That doesn't hold up well against the dozens and more questions the antivax side brings. For those who did more research than what's happening in the yenta club.