Has anyone you know changed their mind

amother

Ivory

Thu, May 07 2020, 4:00 pm

amother [ Silver ] wrote:

Now you know another kind of person. I was your number 3 in the beginning. Then I changed to number 1. Now I'm number 4. I've gone through both sides thoroughly and I've arrived at the truth. The truth is just like we're told, a dr is a shliach and we should listen to our drs.
The Rabbonim say this very clearly. I didn't want to accept it and now I'm ready to. Because I see how the antivax drs and sites and info and "proofs" are really just nothing. Anything can be presented a certain way in order to prove something.

Apparently there is more than one antivax crowd. If they don't know what vaxtruth and who dr mendelsohn are then they are 30-50 years behind the times. They are probably hearing quotes passed on from person to person originally from these sources and don't know where they came from. Or like I said previously, they rely on their and their neighbor's gut instinct and not much more.

The way I got trapped into thinking that antivax has the answers is because every time a question is asked about vaccines, the only response from govt officials or drs is: "vaccines are safe and effective."
That doesn't hold up well against the dozens and more questions the antivax side brings. For those who did more research than what's happening in the yenta club.

I'm also category 4, but I like to find doctors whose hashkafa matches my own, because if I know we see eye-to-eye and share priorities, I can trust them to take my concerns into account. I also choose doctors who don't mind answering my crazy out-there questions that no parent ever thinks of. Smile

amother

Silver

Thu, May 07 2020, 4:49 pm

amother [ Ivory ] wrote:

I have a dr I'm very happy with.

amother

Silver

Thu, May 07 2020, 4:56 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

now youre squarely in cat 3, instead of trusting drs cuz you trust their medical expertize youre trusting them cuz you found halachic evidence that you should do that and it doenst make you a blind sheep to follow them , but in the actual issue of vaccines you really dont believe in them and rather not give them but you trust the dr cuz rabbanim said you can.
im not saying whos right and whos wrong , theres no way we can know but seems like you thought its black & white and now you see its gray. like , no I dont think antivax has the answers at all I think they have the questions and the provax dont have the answers . I want answers before I vaccinate and if there arent any I will rather avoid them unitl I cant anymore

That's where I used to be, where you are now. Now I'm convinced of the halacha to listen to mainstream doctors. So there is no other way for me. If my dr recommends a new vaccine for covid I will take it. He is very careful and responsible, and knows us well.

imasoftov

Thu, May 07 2020, 5:20 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

There are "flu shots". Not even the lying government calls them "flu vaccines"

Health and Human Services: Where can I find a flu vaccine?
CDC: Key Facts About Seasonal Flu Vaccine
FDA: Influenza Vaccine for the 2019-2020 Season
NIH: All About the Flu and How to Prevent It "A flu shot contains the flu vaccine ..."
White House: Executive Order on Modernizing Influenza Vaccines in the United States to Promote National Security and Public Health this order was issued by Trump

amother

Thu, May 07 2020, 5:23 pm

amother [ Silver ] wrote:

im sorry to say but my categories didnt include halacha , so all of this isnt applicable . I was talking only the actual knowledge someone have about vaccines . I know were yidden and halacah factors in so you could do that but there are halachic responsa both ways and doctors both ways so I was only talking about the info you have you either anti , pro , do what dr says whether you have info or not and dont even care about the issue of vaccines itself

amother

Silver

Thu, May 07 2020, 6:30 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Would you like to start a new thread on halachic sources that are against vaccinating?

amother

Seashell

Thu, May 07 2020, 6:30 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

people can be 'anti-vax' with having no knowledge at all about vaccines - strictly based on their beliefs/life philosophies/convictions.

amother

Silver

Thu, May 07 2020, 6:34 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I'm not in healthcare so I'm not going to be the one taking each study and graph that the antivaxers share and show how they are ignoring pertinent info. I'll leave that to the experts.
For myself I've seen enough examples, and I'm fine not pursuing more.

Aylat

Fri, May 08 2020, 1:59 am

amother [ Lemon ] wrote:

If you are serious enough, I would email you passages and sources. It will take time and effort for me and DH to look it up, scan them and email, so please only ask this of me if you are seriously interested. If you are, I'll be happy to do it for you.
You're not going to get a statement of "Never listen to your doctor. He's a crook and only has his own money in mind". But there are very strong statements in Igeros Moshe about the veracity of doctors, both in relation to vaccinations and other areas.
There are many references in Shevet Halevi about not trusting/following doctors orders.
And again, there are more that I can look up if you're seriously interested.

I am interested and would really like to read sources if you have time to look them up and post. I have an interest in medical ethics and medical halacha.

banana123

Fri, May 08 2020, 2:43 am

amother [ Lemon ] wrote:

I am seriously interested and I know my husband would love to see the sources in full.

amother

Lemon

Fri, May 08 2020, 4:55 pm

Aylat wrote:

I am interested and would really like to read sources if you have time to look them up and post. I have an interest in medical ethics and medical halacha.

You overestimate me, lol.
Medical ethics is a complex and vast topic that I haven't done research on. There are wonderful journals by frum doctors and rabbis, as well as doctors who are also rabbis. I can't remember them offhand, but I did hear them quoted, perhaps on Dovid Lichtenstein's shows.
A google search should lead you someplace.
I was responding to the statement that mainstream Judiasm supports doing what your doctor says and having emunah in the outcome (I'm paraphrasing).
I countered that specific statement by saying that its too much of a blanket statement. There are those in mainstream Judiasm who may believe so, but there are definitely those who don't.
My starting source for that is Mesoras Moshe (Rav Moshe Feinstein), Even Haezer, daf 310-314. The language is very clear, and there is absolutely no ambiguity there.
If you don't have access to the sefer you can put an email and I'll scan it in for you. I don't know how to upload images to imamother.

amother

Lemon

Fri, May 08 2020, 4:57 pm

banana123 wrote:

I am seriously interested and I know my husband would love to see the sources in full.

See post above for clarity on what I was discussing and one source. If you want more info and/or sources, there's a compilation I can email you if you leave your email address here.
Or, I can pm you if you don't want to publicize your email. Let me know.