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CiCi




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, May 06 2020, 12:43 pm
PinkFridge wrote:
So if you went to the ER (not a great idea with corona) you get the test? Between Purim and Pesach, people I know had a hard time getting tested and felt it wasn't worth the bother.


Right, it was almost impossible to get tested in the beginning. But later everyone could get tested if they said they didn't feel well.

The tests weren't administered in the ER, there were temporary sites set up all over. But the lack of testing was the same for everyone as was it the same when testing became available for everyone. In short, medical care was even across the board.
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, May 06 2020, 1:20 pm
Unless the test was done by a private lab, rather than the DOH, there was no charge but the patient or his insurance company was on the hook for the care. Bernie was right.
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Ora in town




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, May 06 2020, 1:35 pm
heidi wrote:
No.
In Israel going to a public park was forbidden from the end of March.

I like the approach of the golden middle way: Go out, but stay separated.
Go for a walk with your core family (persons in the same household), but don't "meet" anyone.

The reason why some governments decided to allow physical activity outdoors are:
- general health: cooping up the whole population would that it would have lead to whole range of negative health outcomes linked to lack of physical activity.

- the fear that domestic violence might soar if families stay cooped up and cannot go out.

However, I think that it was a good idea to be very strict on visits (pessach, shabbes) and any kinds of assemblies (minyanim, etc.)

Over here, "assemblies" were limited to 5 persons, keeping a distance of two meters.

I found it so cute, during pessach and shabbes to see the teenagers sitting in the park, in triangles or squares, scrupulously keeping 2 m distance or more, and shmoozing...Would have been a pity to take that away from them...

heidi wrote:
Exaggerated lockdown saved over 11,000 lives if compared to NYC numbers.
I'll take it


What saved lives in Israel was early intervention. NY and USA were really reckless until they had around 100'000 registered cases...

Allowing assemblies for purim in Israel was a mistake.
Allowing people from the USA into Israel without quarantine was probably also a mistake.

I suppose they could have saved more lives if they had limited assemblies to 5 on purim (perhaps 10 for Megilla and Minyanim) and allowed just 1 or 2 shlachmones...

The total lockdown was overkill... But the brutal suppression of reunions on pessach was the right thing to do...
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Ora in town




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, May 06 2020, 1:45 pm
CiCi wrote:
Right, it was almost impossible to get tested in the beginning.

That was because the government refused help from abroad... If they had just taken what was given to them and said thank you, they could have avoided that impasse, which cost tens of thousands of lives...
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Ora in town




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, May 06 2020, 1:54 pm
chanchy123 wrote:
Just pointing out that there was not full compliance in Israel. We had our fair share of picnickers, minyan goers, etc. I think it’s unfair to accuse Americans in general of ignoring SD and most Israelis would think it’s historic that Israelis have not discipline than Americans. I mean many of my neighbors’ children have been playing together like usual.
The lockdown was not 100% in either country.


I think the main difference was not compliance, but early intervention.
Israel was among the first countries outside east asia to take serious measures...

The USA, NY waited till it was too late... Washington state was more successfull, they were more aware of the danger... If the whole US had behaved like washington state, they could have contained it earlier...

But the federal government had to point fingers at all kinds of foreign nations, when community spread was already omnipresent in the USA... but they could not see it... because they were not equiped to test...
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Ora in town




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, May 06 2020, 1:58 pm
moonstone wrote:
Not sure if this has been mentioned here, but many are blaming the high number of cases in the US (regardless of color) on the fact that so many people there don't have a lot of sick days, so they often go to work even if they aren't feeling well-- which contributed to the spread of Corona. I think most places of work in Israel give plenty of sick days--and don't penalize people for taking "too many", which I've heard happens in the US. Taking too many sick days there can make you look bad and cost you raises and promotions--or even get u fired. Terrible.


What? People who are sick cannot take sick days? Over here, people who need it can take sick leave for 2 years with 80% salary, (100% salary the first three months) and afterwards the invalidity insurance takes care!!! (doesn't happen often, people do not stay sick for 2 years because they are too lazy to work)

What kind of third world system is that where employees are not properly insured?
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chanchy123




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, May 06 2020, 2:02 pm
CiCi wrote:
Thanks for being honest. I suspected as much. There are all kinds of people everywhere so it's impossible to control everyone. I also couldn't believe large families had their kids locked in their apartments for 6 weeks...

Of course many people did/do follow guidelines- the majority do. But by no means was it 100%.
And yes it took the chareidi community a few weeks to realize this was a big problem. It took a spike of cases in Bnei Brak and other chareidi areas and news reached them about the deaths in the from communities in London and NY.
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Rappel




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, May 06 2020, 2:02 pm
Ora in town wrote:
What? People who are sick cannot take sick days? Over here, you can stay sick for 2 years, if you need to, and afterwards the invalidity insurance takes care!!! (doesn't happen often, people do not stay sick for 2 years because they are too lazy to work)

What kind of third world system is that were employees are not properly insured?


Hey hey, USA? Hiding

I'm googling sick leave policies, and I'm coming up blank. Do you have any links? We've never yet taken any sick days, so what you said was news to me, and I want to learn more! Essentially, what you were describing was that if someone is too incapacitated to work, then they get paid leave for up to two years, at which point it would change status to that of a permanent disability. Is that correct?


Last edited by Rappel on Wed, May 06 2020, 2:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Rappel




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, May 06 2020, 2:09 pm
chanchy123 wrote:
Of course many people did/do follow guidelines- the majority do. But by no means was it 100%.
And yes it took the chareidi community a few weeks to realize this was a big problem. It took a spike of cases in Bnei Brak and other chareidi areas and news reached them about the deaths in the from communities in London and NY.


I can't speak for anywhere else (surprisingly, I haven't gotten around much lately LOL) but in Itamar we are very strict about compliance as a community, and we haven't even had any cases, BH. I don't personally know anyone who was affected by coronavirus, but the whole town has been locked down for weeks, and is only just easing restrictions. That being said, with the return of shopping centers and ganim, people are starting to chafe at the bit. Everyone is grumbling about the government ban on private lag b'omer fires, for example: I think we're all longing for a taste of (safe) normal.
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etky




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, May 06 2020, 2:09 pm
Ora in town wrote:
What saved lives in Israel was early intervention. NY and USA were really reckless until they had around 100'000 registered cases...

Allowing assemblies for purim in Israel was a mistake.
Allowing people from the USA into Israel without quarantine was probably also a mistake.

I suppose they could have saved more lives if they had limited assemblies to 5 on purim (perhaps 10 for Megilla and Minyanim) and allowed just 1 or 2 shlachmones...

The total lockdown was overkill... But the brutal suppression of reunions on pessach was the right thing to do...


This unfortunately is so true.
We had over 40 cases in Efrat from just one shul Purim party. It accounted for about 3/4 of the confimed cases that we had in Efrat.
And there were so many cases all over Israel because of people coming in from the US and Europe and not having had to quarantine over Purim.
I was following the 'maslulim' (the published whereabouts) of the early cases so as to inform my family members if they had come into contact with any confirmed cases (this was before the phone tracking was introduced) and there were inumerable instances of contagion at shul over Purim and just beforehand due to quarantine not being mandatory for travelers.
One very tragic instance involved a staff member who unwittingly brought infection into a nursing home in Jerusalem. She had been infected at a family celebration at shul which had included a tourist visiting from France. That tourist actually started a very extensive train of infection that sent thousands of people in the Jerusalem area into isolation, many of whom became sick.
And this is just one of many, many examples.
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amother




Brunette
 

Post  Wed, May 06 2020, 2:10 pm
chanchy123 wrote:
Of course many people did/do follow guidelines- the majority do. But by no means was it 100%.
And yes it took the chareidi community a few weeks to realize this was a big problem. It took a spike of cases in Bnei Brak and other chareidi areas and news reached them about the deaths in the from communities in London and NY.


Shhhhhh, you can't say that! What are you, anti Semitic? Charedim are always perfect!

/sarcasm
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ora_43




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, May 06 2020, 2:11 pm
There are definitely people in Israel who aren't taking this seriously. That's a big part of why the rules were so strict, I think - so that police would have an excuse to tell people to go home when they're clearly pushing it.

The second people were allowed back on the beach, for example, there were groups of people getting together there.

Which is also why so many people are taking a wait and see approach. It's really not clear that Israel's method worked, period, vs. worked-for-now. I do think people are taking precautions now that nobody was taking at Purim time, but are we being careful enough to keep transmission under control... I don't know.
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chanchy123




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, May 06 2020, 2:17 pm
amother [ Brunette ] wrote:
Shhhhhh, you can't say that! What are you, anti Semitic? Charedim are always perfect!

/sarcasm

To be clear - Israel has had anti Semitic - anti chareidi response. Disgusting and totally unfair, but the fact is that chareidi schools and minyanim shut down two weeks after everyone else and Bnei Brak was a hub of infection and most unidentifiable cases came from Bnei Brak. But there was not enough education targeted at the chareidi public, who had little contact with mass media or the Internet it took a few weeks until everyone got their act together.
Now many of the active cases are in Arab areas.


Last edited by chanchy123 on Wed, May 06 2020, 2:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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naturalmom5




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, May 06 2020, 2:18 pm
amother [ Brunette ] wrote:
Shhhhhh, you can't say that! What are you, anti Semitic? Charedim are always perfect!

/sarcasm


Look how many candy bars they sent to the nurses

Look how much plasma they donated

The lowly gentills dont do that
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Ora in town




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, May 06 2020, 2:33 pm
Rappel wrote:
Hey hey, USA? Hiding

I'm googling sick leave policies, and I'm coming up blank. Do you have any links? We've never yet taken any sick days, so what you said was news to me, and I want to learn more! Essentially, what you were describing was that if someone is too incapacitated to work, then they get paid leave for up to two years, at which point it would change status to that of a permanent disability. Is that correct?

Yes. That's the system in most civilised countries... with differences in the details... are sick leave and disabilty two different insurances, or is it the same, do they continue to pay 100% of salary or just 80%, etc...
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Shuly




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, May 06 2020, 7:02 pm
The chareidi schools and shuls in my Jerusalem neighborhood shut down as soon as misrad habriut required it.

Were there some chareidim who didn't follow the rules? I'm sure, but no one that I know of.
Were there non-frum who didn't follow the rules? Yes, there were many news reports about the full parks and beaches in Ramat Gan and Tel Aviv.
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CiCi




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, May 06 2020, 7:44 pm
Shuly wrote:
The chareidi schools and shuls in my Jerusalem neighborhood shut down as soon as misrad habriut required it.

Were there some chareidim who didn't follow the rules? I'm sure, but no one that I know of.
Were there non-frum who didn't follow the rules? Yes, there were many news reports about the full parks and beaches in Ramat Gan and Tel Aviv.


Sshhh! Don't let the secret out. Everyone thinks the Israeli police and government were totally on top of everyone! Only the Chareidim were troublemakers...
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amother




Gray
 

Post  Wed, May 06 2020, 9:11 pm
CiCi wrote:
Sshhh! Don't let the secret out. Everyone thinks the Israeli police and government were totally on top of everyone! Only the Chareidim were troublemakers...


There are pictures of the police going after surfers at the beach in Tel Aviv.

But shhh! Don't let the folks in Bnei Brak know that. They need to feel victimized and superior.

The death toll in Bnei Brak was much higher than anyplace else in Israel. There were real, deadly consequences to not shutting down, particularly in a community that is uniquely vulnerable due to population density.
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Ora in town




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, May 06 2020, 9:34 pm
amother [ Gray ] wrote:
There are pictures of the police going after surfers at the beach in Tel Aviv.

But shhh! Don't let the folks in Bnei Brak know that. They need to feel victimized and superior.

The death toll in Bnei Brak was much higher than anyplace else in Israel. There were real, deadly consequences to not shutting down, particularly in a community that is uniquely vulnerable due to population density.


...and then, they go around concluding that they had a higher incidence because they are holier, so hashem punishes them harsher...
Banging head Banging head Banging head Banging head Banging head
Even then, when they say there were more victims in Bnei Brak, they cannot go back and say "We underestimated the danger, the assimon fell a little bit late with many rabbis"
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CiCi




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, May 06 2020, 9:50 pm
With the outcomes being so different, I'm interested in seeing what will be in 6 months, whether more exposure to the virus or less is better. Also it would be interesting to compare Sweden which is pretty low comparatively to other countries which did have lockdowns.

It will be interesting to see whether herd immunity will work with this virus or not.
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