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Israel vs NJ in numbers
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amother




Burlywood
 

Post  Wed, May 06 2020, 10:01 pm
CiCi wrote:
With the outcomes being so different, I'm interested in seeing what will be in 6 months, whether more exposure to the virus or less is better. Also it would be interesting to compare Sweden which is pretty low comparatively to other countries which did have lockdowns.

It will be interesting to see whether herd immunity will work with this virus or not.


I keep seeing this repeated here. Sweden currently has 291 fatalities/million. That is the seventh highest in the world and way, way worse than its neighbors.
Denmark - 87/million
Finland - 45/million
Norway - 40/million
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Ora in town




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, May 07 2020, 2:12 am
CiCi wrote:
With the outcomes being so different, I'm interested in seeing what will be in 6 months, whether more exposure to the virus or less is better. Also it would be interesting to compare Sweden which is pretty low comparatively to other countries which did have lockdowns.

It will be interesting to see whether herd immunity will work with this virus or not.


Sweden is not very densely populated. that makes a huge difference in virus reproduction.

Before there were measles vaccines, there would be a measles epidemy among school children every two years in UK, but only every 4 years in less populated Iceland. So lower population density definitely reduces virus reproduction numbers.

Origninally Sweden declared that they followed the UK policy.
You saw what became of UK: now they have the highest death toll in Europe, they just surpassed Italy.

So it was definitely reckless on UK's part not to impliment containment measures earlier.
Therefore, the "UK policy" definitelywas no good example.

However, the population in Sweden keeps social distancing rules. Some of it is part of their culture... they won't hug and kiss all the time, their feeling of appropriate personal space is in the range of more than 1m anyway.
They do a lot of contact via electronic means anyway.
They have a very high rate of people living alone.

they do a lot of home office anyway, now they do more, since they were told not go to work unless it is necessary.

They were told not to go out if they had any symptoms of cold, flu, feeling unwell and to wait at home till at least 2 days after recovery.
Actually, they followed this guideline so strictly, from february on, that the flu suddenly was cut short, in the middle of flu season.

For easter weekend, they reduced travel by 90%.
Bars (where there is a superspreader-risk) are closed.
assemblies over 50 persons are forbidden.

So it seems that Sweden had a lower risk to start with, so less draconian measures were enough to keep infection rates in a range where the healthcare system could handle them.
By the way, they massively expanded their capacities, in preparation of the crisis.
And they were lucky. It could have gone the way it went in UK...
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DrMom




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, May 07 2020, 2:57 am
etky wrote:
I think though that guidelines were clearer here and their legal status less ambiguous.
At least that is my impression from reading some of the threads here about SD, mask wearing, minyanim etc, in the NY area.
Seems that lots was left to individual discretion there and different guidelines applied to different communities, no?

Definitely. We had weekly or biweekly broadcasts from the gov explaining exactly what was allowd and what was not, and bulleted lists were published in newspapers as soon as the details were made available.

I think there was a lot less confusion in Israel re: what was allowed and what was not. I saw so many threads on the main forum from NYers who did not know basic rules (if they needed masks, SD, visiting policies, going outdoors, etc.), whereas it seemed the Israeli posters had questions only on the minute details but were very up-to-date on the basic rules.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, May 07 2020, 3:19 am
CiCi wrote:
Sshhh! Don't let the secret out. Everyone thinks the Israeli police and government were totally on top of everyone! Only the Chareidim were troublemakers...
I dont think anyone thought on charedim were not complying with the rules. It literally takes all kinds.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, May 07 2020, 3:22 am
CiCi wrote:
With the outcomes being so different, I'm interested in seeing what will be in 6 months, whether more exposure to the virus or less is better. Also it would be interesting to compare Sweden which is pretty low comparatively to other countries which did have lockdowns.

It will be interesting to see whether herd immunity will work with this virus or not.
but it was already shown to not work. Englabd started that way and then changed their minds quickly.
Also, wherever you have groups of people, together, there have been more cases.
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Elfrida




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, May 07 2020, 3:47 am
The government here also gave very specific guidance about what was allowed in terms in minyanim - because they knew that would be a huge issue for all the religeous community. Once Rav Kannievsky also issued statemant bannig minyanim except in aaccordance with Misrad HaBriut rules, there was little doubt that the majority would comply with the regulations.

(The governemt also gave regulations about mikvaot, ordered a lock down for Leil Ha Seder, and now is specifically allowing weddings with up to 50 guests for Lag b'Omer - and no medurot. They relate to the facets of Jewish life in a way the governments elsewhere cannnot do.)

In chutz l'aretz these matters weren't addressed by the government, which led to a lot more opinions from different rabbanim (and some individuals) about the best thing to do. More confusion was inevitable.
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Ora in town




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, May 07 2020, 4:48 am
Elfrida wrote:
Once Rav Kannievsky also issued statemant bannig minyanim except in aaccordance with Misrad HaBriut rules, there was little doubt that the majority would comply with the regulations.


What took him so long?
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Elfrida




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, May 07 2020, 4:56 am
He was uninformed as to the true risk of the virus.

He was only told that it even existed at a relatively late stage.

Our normal response to a crisis would be to increase learning and davening. It isnt easy to say עת לעשות לשם, הפרו תורתך. It needs to be a very unique circumstance (as it was!) before you can do this.


Last edited by Elfrida on Thu, May 07 2020, 5:59 am; edited 1 time in total
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Ora in town




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, May 07 2020, 5:13 am
Elfrida wrote:
He was uninformed as to the true risk of the virus.

He was only told that it even existed at a relatively late stage.

Our normal response to a crisis would be to increase learning and davening. It isnt easy to say את לעשות לשם, הפרו תורתך. It needs to be a very unique circumstance (as it was!) before you can do this.


Wasn't it him who first said that yeshivot and chadorim shoud NOT close?

Why would anyone make a statement with such an impact for public health without deferring to health professionals? Or at least consulting them thouroughly first? Methinks that's not conform with halacha...

I am disappointed that any rabbi, let alone the gadol hador would make such a rash decision without doing the necessary research.

But it might also be that his entourage trapped him... Perhaps they, too, should have looked to it that he gets access to thourough information before asking the question.. But why can the gadol ha dor be tricked so easily?


Last edited by Ora in town on Thu, May 07 2020, 5:28 am; edited 1 time in total
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etky




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, May 07 2020, 5:20 am
Ora in town wrote:
Wasn't it him who first said that yeshivot and chadorim shoud NOT close?

Why would anyone make a statement of this impact for public health without deferring to health professionals? Methinks that's not conform with halacha...


Because that's not the decision-making culture in that sector.
Once the gravity of the situation sunk in they deferred.
The initial reaction was naturally to keep Torah study and tefilla going and to react with suspicion to any govt. attempt to interfere with these pillars of religious life.
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salt




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, May 07 2020, 5:28 am
I had great difficulty understand how Rav Kanievsky said initially that the talmudei torah and yeshivot should stay open, until I saw this clip.
https://www.kikar.co.il/351046.html

They way he was asked, he wasn't informed. It was before there were any serious cases or deaths.
As soon as he was informed by government and health officials, he said learning should continue in very small groups, and a few days later most yeshivot closed down.
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Ora in town




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, May 07 2020, 5:30 am
etky wrote:
Because that's not the decision-making culture in that sector.
Once the gravity of the situation sunk in they deferred.
The initial reaction was naturally to keep Torah study and tefilla going and to react with suspicion to any govt. attempt to interfere with these pillars of religious life.


But it should be!!!
That's the kind of emunat chachamim that makes me lose all emuna in so-called chachamim...
How can you be a Rabbi or Dayan without analysing the situation thouroughly before rendering a psak?
That's what's so incomprehensible to me...
Would lead you to conclude that a psak din made by such a rov might not really be reliable...


Last edited by Ora in town on Thu, May 07 2020, 5:36 am; edited 2 times in total
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Ora in town




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, May 07 2020, 5:34 am
salt wrote:
I had great difficulty understand how Rav Kanievsky said initially that the talmudei torah and yeshivot should stay open, until I saw this clip.
https://www.kikar.co.il/351046.html

They way he was asked, he wasn't informed. It was before there were any serious cases or deaths.
As soon as he was informed by government and health officials, he said learning should continue in very small groups, and a few days later most yeshivot closed down.


But he is at it again. He or his entourage...
They wrote an appeal for newspapers that yeshivot should re-open as soon as possible, or else!!!

Why do they not think that in such a period of emergency bochrim could sit at home, or with their chevrusa, or in small groups of 4, always the same, and learn?
Why are they at all in a hurry to re-open yeshivot where hundereds, if not thousands of men learn in the same room?
All you need to learn is a shtender, a book, and your brain...
Of course, someone who teaches you when you are stuck...
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Elfrida




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, May 07 2020, 5:40 am
Unfortunately, the culture that has evolved in Israel over the past 72 years has (rightfully) engendered a lot of suspicion about the motives of the government when it comes to Torah learning. And no secular government has ever understood the importance of Torah learning in maintaining this country.

The people who passed the message on to him downplayed the dangers of the virus, which were anyway not yet clearly defined. He felt that maintaining - and even increasing - Torah study was the most important response. I have no qualms about respecting his authority.


Last edited by Elfrida on Thu, May 07 2020, 5:43 am; edited 1 time in total
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salt




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, May 07 2020, 5:43 am
Ora in town wrote:
But he is at it again. He or his entourage...
They wrote an appeal for newspapers that yeshivot should re-open as soon as possible, or else!!!

Why do they not think that in such a period of emergency bochrim could sit at home, or with their chevrusa, or in small groups of 4, always the same, and learn?
Why are they at all in a hurry to re-open yeshivot where hundereds, if not thousands of men learn in the same room?
All you need to learn is a shtender, a book, and your brain...
Of course, someone who teaches you when you are stuck...


Each yeshiva is being checked by the authorities as to whether it has enough space an is well equipped enough to open up in accordance with the 'capsule' model, keeping within the same small groups at all times, and not leaving the premises for a given period of time.
That's exactly how the high-schools opened up. And that's how the kindergarten's are going to open up.
And offices, malls, and markets for that matter.
So why not the yeshivot, slowly and gradually and carefully.

FTR none of my kids' yeshivot have opened, nor beit yaakov school nor seminary.
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amother




Gray
 

Post  Thu, May 07 2020, 5:52 am
salt wrote:
I had great difficulty understand how Rav Kanievsky said initially that the talmudei torah and yeshivot should stay open, until I saw this clip.
https://www.kikar.co.il/351046.html

They way he was asked, he wasn't informed. It was before there were any serious cases or deaths.
As soon as he was informed by government and health officials, he said learning should continue in very small groups, and a few days later most yeshivot closed down.


Deleted
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Rappel




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, May 07 2020, 6:11 am
Elfrida wrote:
Unfortunately, the culture that has evolved in Israel over the past 72 years has (rightfully) engendered a lot of suspicion about the motives of the government when it comes to Torah learning. And no secular government has ever understood the importance of Torah learning in maintaining this country.

The people who passed the message on to him downplayed the dangers of the virus, which were anyway not yet clearly defined. He felt that maintaining - and even increasing - Torah study was the most important response. I have no qualms about respecting his authority.


It's sad and frustrating that many great rabbanim are completely enveloped by their gabbaim. I have great respect for daat Torah, but whenever I hear a nonsense gezeirah from intelligent leaders, I know it happened because they were insulated from reality, and it makes me trust their opinions far less.
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Shuly




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, May 07 2020, 6:16 am
On Mar 15, Rav Chaim said that Torah learning should continue under social distancing guidelines - no more than 10 in a room and spread 2 meters apart.
Our shuls davened outdoors and the schools split up the classes into 10 boys per class, sitting 2 meters apart with windows opened for 2 days until they decided to cancel altogether.

None of our schools have reopened - not gans, Beis Yaakov or Cheders. I heard Misrad Habriut was trying to figure out a way to open yeshivos - and this includes Dati Leumi yeshivos, but nothing has opened yet.
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PinkFridge




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, May 07 2020, 7:43 am
Ora in town wrote:
But it should be!!!
That's the kind of emunat chachamim that makes me lose all emuna in so-called chachamim...
How can you be a Rabbi or Dayan without analysing the situation thouroughly before rendering a psak?
That's what's so incomprehensible to me...
Would lead you to conclude that a psak din made by such a rov might not really be reliable...


This is a shiur that was given by Rabbi Shraga Kallus of EY to seminary girls (by Zoom). Some interesting ideas there.
"Did the rabbanim make a mistake regarding coronaa?" https://www.torahanytime.com/#.....10421
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Ora in town




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, May 07 2020, 7:47 am
I think the question they should have asked rav Kanievsky in the first place, back in March, should have been:
How can we insure that learning goes on when not more than 5 or 10 people are allowed to meet in a room...

They should not have asked him yes or no, this was a trap, tended to him by his own gabbaim...

They should have asked: how can children/bochrim/yungeleit learn in very small groups!
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