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moonstone




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, May 06 2020, 10:18 am
southernbubby wrote:
Blacks in America are roughly13% of the population but 30% of the virus cases. They are also known as a group to have poorer health than the rest of the population. Correct me if I am wrong (happens on rare occasions) but the Hispanic community ditto. Apparently these communities are even harder hit than the rest of the country as far as serious illness and death. Feel free to correct if I got this wrong.


I read quite a few articles that discussed why both black and charedi communities have a higher number of cases. Both communities tend to be poorer, with more people living together in small homes, both put a high value on getting together in social situations, especially church/shul. Both tend to listen to their own leaders (who might not always have been good about encouraging people to stay home) rather than the government/police, which these communities often mistrust.

Not sure if this has been mentioned here, but many are blaming the high number of cases in the US (regardless of color) on the fact that so many people there don't have a lot of sick days, so they often go to work even if they aren't feeling well-- which contributed to the spread of Corona. I think most places of work in Israel give plenty of sick days--and don't penalize people for taking "too many", which I've heard happens in the US. Taking too many sick days there can make you look bad and cost you raises and promotions--or even get u fired. Terrible.
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etky




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, May 06 2020, 10:34 am
amother [ Pewter ] wrote:
Are you sure flights from china was still coming to the us? I thought they did stop that before purim, and the virus came to the us from Europe? I may be wrong here..


I have no idea when exactly flights from China stopped coming into the US.
I was talking about the measures that Israel took which b"h proved themselves, including closing the borders in a timely fashion and instituting mandatory quarantine on anyone coming in, from anywhere, early enough in the game so that it was effective.
Flights from China were actually stopped much earlier than this. ElAl stopped flying to China at the end of January and flights from China on other airlines were stopped soon thereafter.
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CiCi




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, May 06 2020, 10:57 am
amother [ Ivory ] wrote:
You are very much posting with an agenda here.

You can't just say oh yad hashem yad hashem without looking at what hishtadlus you could have done. Thats a slippery slope and frum jews don't believe that. We of course believe in yad hashem but we also strongly believe that we can and should do everything we can.

Fact is, the U.S did a terrible job managing the pandemic. Most other countries managed to do a full lockdown and have started having exit plans. Only America decided they couldn't. The leaders failed the people and the saddest part is that many Americans refuse to see how their leaders sacrificed them


Oh my, oh my, what an insidious agenda I have saying that everything, including this virus, is yad Hashem.

Show me where I've said you shouldn't do hishtadlus. I was analyzing conditions that led to the huge discrepancy in deaths. I was analyzing the hishtadlus or lack of hishtadlus on the parts of our government but also affirming that it's yad Hashem. It's not a stira.

I don't see why people constantly post snarky comments. You have a different opinion or something to add to the discussion then post it, no need to get personal as so many here keep on doing.


Last edited by CiCi on Wed, May 06 2020, 11:09 am; edited 1 time in total
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amother




Pewter
 

Post  Wed, May 06 2020, 11:08 am
heidi wrote:
I'm all for saying that Hashem is protecting Israel.
But look at the difference in attitude.
On Pesach 4 separate friends told me about having married children who came and went between them and the mechutanim all chag.
Two separate friends told me about their chol hamoed trips to Bear Mountain.
Friends in America were taking their kids to the park. Just to bike around.
If you search here you can find threads screaming about American invasion of civil liberties.
We shut up and stayed inside.

I live in Brooklyn. left the house 4x for groceries this past month (dh was there more often, also went to his private basement office occasionally), I take out my trash, take short walks around midnight, and occasionally allow my kids to go out on their bikes. We wear masks and are careful to sd. And I keep seeing videos of meah shearim or wherever where crowds seem to be spilling all over the streets. Its hard to get a clear picture from afar, though
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CiCi




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, May 06 2020, 11:16 am
amother [ Pewter ] wrote:
I live in Brooklyn. left the house 4x for groceries this past month (dh was there more often, also went to his private basement office occasionally), I take out my trash, take short walks around midnight, and occasionally allow my kids to go out on their bikes. We wear masks and are careful to sd. And I keep seeing videos of meah shearim or wherever where crowds seem to be spilling all over the streets. Its hard to get a clear picture from afar, though


Yes, I suspect the situation is not so black and white as it's made out to be here on this thread.

I believe the biggest advantage Israel had with preventing people from exposure was quarantining everyone who landed in Israel for 14 days and stopping incoming flights much earlier than they did in the US but not that there necessarily were less people out on the streets shopping or in the early days making larger weddings, etc.


Last edited by CiCi on Wed, May 06 2020, 11:49 am; edited 2 times in total
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etky




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, May 06 2020, 11:21 am
amother [ Pewter ] wrote:
I live in Brooklyn. left the house 4x for groceries this past month (dh was there more often, also went to his private basement office occasionally), I take out my trash, take short walks around midnight, and occasionally allow my kids to go out on their bikes. We wear masks and are careful to sd. And I keep seeing videos of meah shearim or wherever where crowds seem to be spilling all over the streets. Its hard to get a clear picture from afar, though


Maybe the crowds that you saw was just people out grocery shopping?
Grocery shopping in crowded, urban Me'ah Shearim probably looks quite different than grocery shopping in a residential Brooklyn neighborhood where people have private homes with basements and kids ride around the block on their bikes.
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amother




Oak
 

Post  Wed, May 06 2020, 11:24 am
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CiCi




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, May 06 2020, 11:51 am
etky wrote:
Maybe the crowds that you saw was just people out grocery shopping?
Grocery shopping in crowded, urban Me'ah Shearim probably looks quite different than grocery shopping in a residential Brooklyn neighborhood where people have private homes with basements and kids ride around the block on their bikes.


Gerocery shopping in the city, is grocery shopping in the city...Brooklyn is not a suburban area. Granted, Meah Shearim streets are narrower, but not in the rest of Yerushalayim or in other cities in Israel.
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naturalmom5




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, May 06 2020, 11:57 am
Major difference..


Willy and BP got away with murder for weeks
It was a free for all..

The mayor finally called them out, and hes the bad guy

According to my husbands friend, senior Hatzola personnel and askonim in B Brak were told
Quietly,

The nonsense stops NOW, or the hospitals wont admit members of your community
" They are full "...

Compliance shot up over night....
Israel doesn't play games,..
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CiCi




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, May 06 2020, 12:05 pm
naturalmom5 wrote:
Major difference..


Willy and BP got away with murder for weeks
It was a free for all..

The mayor finally called them out, and hes the bad guy

According to my husbands friend, senior Hatzola personnel and askonim in B Brak were told
Quietly,

The nonsense stops NOW, or the hospitals wont admit members of your community
" They are full "...

Compliance shot up over night....
Israel doesn't play games,..


Sigh...we are talking about 11,000 people from NYC and 8,000 people from NJ... The vast majority of those who died were not Jewish people so you can't blame the frum communities for the high death toll.
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, May 06 2020, 12:08 pm
moonstone wrote:
I read quite a few articles that discussed why both black and charedi communities have a higher number of cases. Both communities tend to be poorer, with more people living together in small homes, both put a high value on getting together in social situations, especially church/shul. Both tend to listen to their own leaders (who might not always have been good about encouraging people to stay home) rather than the government/police, which these communities often mistrust.

Not sure if this has been mentioned here, but many are blaming the high number of cases in the US (regardless of color) on the fact that so many people there don't have a lot of sick days, so they often go to work even if they aren't feeling well-- which contributed to the spread of Corona. I think most places of work in Israel give plenty of sick days--and don't penalize people for taking "too many", which I've heard happens in the US. Taking too many sick days there can make you look bad and cost you raises and promotions--or even get u fired. Terrible.


I also wonder if lack of health care coverage prevented many of the sick people from seeking care and undergoing testing.
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naturalmom5




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, May 06 2020, 12:08 pm
CiCi wrote:
Sigh...we are talking about 11,000 people from NYC and 8,000 people from NJ... The vast majority of those who died were not Jewish people so you can't blame the frum communities for the high death toll.



Why does Lakewood has the highest amt of cases in Ocean Monmouth county

Why does the frum neighborhood in Chicago have the 2nd highest rate after the poorest Black nhood
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CiCi




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, May 06 2020, 12:15 pm
naturalmom5 wrote:
Why does Lakewood has the highest amt of cases in Ocean Monmouth county

Why does the frum neighborhood in Chicago have the 2nd highest rate after the poorest Black nhood


Simple. Because of large families and more crowded living conditions.
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PinkFridge




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, May 06 2020, 12:18 pm
naturalmom5 wrote:
Why does Lakewood has the highest amt of cases in Ocean Monmouth county

Why does the frum neighborhood in Chicago have the 2nd highest rate after the poorest Black nhood


Largely, because of Hashem's timing. Things didn't escalate till AFTER Purim, and AFTER chasunas and community activities even earlier in March. Many, many communities are taking this VERY seriously.
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moonstone




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, May 06 2020, 12:20 pm
southernbubby wrote:
I also wonder if lack of health care coverage prevented many of the sick people from seeking care and undergoing testing.


Yes, I'm sure that also played a part in it.
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chanchy123




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, May 06 2020, 12:21 pm
Just pointing out that there was not full compliance in Israel. We had our fair share of picnickers, minyan goers, etc. I think it’s unfair to accuse Americans in general of ignoring SD and most Israelis would think it’s historic that Israelis have not discipline than Americans. I mean many of my neighbors’ children have been playing together like usual.
The lockdown was not 100% in either country.
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CiCi




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, May 06 2020, 12:24 pm
southernbubby wrote:
I also wonder if lack of health care coverage prevented many of the sick people from seeking care and undergoing testing.


The US gov did free testing for coronavirus. Whoever is bought to the ER cannot be refused treatment. It was not the medical care, it's the crowded living conditions that makes it almost impossible to prevent exposure to the virus.

Often black and Hispanic families share living quarters with other families so there can be multiple families in one residence.
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PinkFridge




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, May 06 2020, 12:27 pm
CiCi wrote:
The US gov did free testing for coronavirus. Whoever is bought to the ER cannot be refused treatment. It was not the medical care, it's the crowded living conditions that makes it almost impossible to prevent exposure to the virus.

Often black and Hispanic families share living quarters with other families so there can be multiple families in one residence.


So if you went to the ER (not a great idea with corona) you get the test? Between Purim and Pesach, people I know had a hard time getting tested and felt it wasn't worth the bother.
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CiCi




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, May 06 2020, 12:28 pm
chanchy123 wrote:
Just pointing out that there was not full compliance in Israel. We had our fair share of picnickers, minyan goers, etc. I think it’s unfair to accuse Americans in general of ignoring SD and most Israelis would think it’s historic that Israelis have not discipline than Americans. I mean many of my neighbors’ children have been playing together like usual.
The lockdown was not 100% in either country.


Thanks for being honest. I suspected as much. There are all kinds of people everywhere so it's impossible to control everyone. I also couldn't believe large families had their kids locked in their apartments for 6 weeks...
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etky




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, May 06 2020, 12:33 pm
chanchy123 wrote:
Just pointing out that there was not full compliance in Israel. We had our fair share of picnickers, minyan goers, etc. I think it’s unfair to accuse Americans in general of ignoring SD and most Israelis would think it’s historic that Israelis have not discipline than Americans. I mean many of my neighbors’ children have been playing together like usual.
The lockdown was not 100% in either country.


I think though that guidelines were clearer here and their legal status less ambiguous.
At least that is my impression from reading some of the threads here about SD, mask wearing, minyanim etc, in the NY area.
Seems that lots was left to individual discretion there and different guidelines applied to different communities, no?
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