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Halachik Psak for Tuition during School Closure
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amother
OP


 

Post Thu, May 07 2020, 10:06 am
Does anyone have a link to a psak from an established rav or beis din regarding tuition payment during school closure?

(Disclaimer: I have already paid full tuition for my kids for March, April and May, and I intend to do so for June.)

I would like to hear the actual halachic psak regarding the breach of contract on the part of both the parents and the school, irrespective of the parents' employment status or the school's desire to pay their teachers in full. 

There is a dual breach of contract:

At the beginning of the school year, I signed a contract obligating me to pay $______ in return for my child's receiving instruction at School X from September through June, with a general schedule of 30 hours per week, with the exception of the vacation days noted on the school calendar. The school committed to providing the instruction as noted above, in return for $______.

Now, due to the mandated school closure, I am unable to send my child to receive instruction. Due to the mandated school closure, the school is unable to provide the instruction they had committed to providing. (My kids' school does provide a daily teleconference of about 45 minutes - my kids are lower elementary/Pre1A. This is not the kind of instruction indicated on the contract.) Which party is obligated to bear the financial fallout of this situation? If anyone has a clear and definitive psak, I would love to hear it.

 *As an aside, I haven't received any indication from my children's school that they have brought this question to a posek for review. The school sent out a letter requesting that parents continue to pay tuition as usual, so that they can pay their teachers in full. Yet when I called the school administrator and asked if the school's payroll is being funded by the Payroll Protection program, he admitted that it is. I am quite confused as to why they sent out that misleading letter! In any case I believe it is important for our hardworking teachers to receive their full pay. However, the need to pay teachers, or a parent's sudden loss of a job, doesn't have any bearing on the actual psak regarding what each party's obligation is due to the dual breach of contract. Sure, I can be nice and pay more than I owe to help the school meet its budget. Sure, the school can be nice and let parents pay less than they owe because they just lost their jobs. 

But the bottom line is, what do the parents actually owe, according to halacha?
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OOTforlife




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, May 07 2020, 10:16 am
I don't have a link for you, but I think this is an interesting halachic question. Not for practical application for me, as we are paying in full, but conceptually interesting.

I thought I saw somebody post on imamother that they'd gotten a psak to pay some percentage of tuition. And maybe someone else saying that Lakewood is working on a community psak for this.
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watergirl




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, May 07 2020, 10:17 am
The vaad where I live has issues a psak. We must continue to pay. But if there has been loss of income to call the school and they will work with us.

ETA - I'm not sure how you can call this a breach of contract. This is considered war times. They can not continue to have school as usual. Most schools in the States have continued to educate our kids.

And if you did not read the other hundred threads on this same topic, I will say again - your tuition covers MUCH more than payroll. If we want a school to still be there when this is over, we must continue to pay. If you think your dollars cover only payroll, you should real your schools annual report. Tuition covers a small fraction of the schools expenses, which are above and beyond paying their employees.
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amother
OP


 

Post Thu, May 07 2020, 10:28 am
watergirl wrote:
The vaad where I live has issues a psak. We must continue to pay.

ETA - I'm not sure how you can call this a breach of contract. This is considered war times. They can not continue to have school as usual. Most schools in the States have continued to educate our kids.

And if you did not read the other hundred threads on this same topic, I will say again - your tuition covers MUCH more than payroll. If we want a school to still be there when this is over, we must continue to pay. If you think your dollars cover only payroll, you should real your schools annual report. Tuition covers a small fraction of the schools expenses, which are above and beyond paying their employees.


I'm sure there are halachos even for wartime. Did the vaad say it is clear-cut halacha that the parents must pay full, or that you must continue to pay full, even though halacha only mandates a percentage, in order to support our childrens' chinuch for the future?

I understand that payroll is not the only expense schools are bearing. I am sure that any psak would obligate parents to pay at least a portion of tuition, as they had committed to sending and paying for the full school year. Listen, I know we both breached the contract due to matters out of our control. But why do parents need to take the full financial fallout of the situation? (e.g. paying full tuition while not being able to telework full-time because children, especially younger elementary, need supervision and entertainment, or paying full tuition while paying for childcare so parents can go to their essential jobs like healthcare or food service)
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amother
OP


 

Post Thu, May 07 2020, 10:31 am
watergirl wrote:


ETA - I'm not sure how you can call this a breach of contract. This is considered war times. They can not continue to have school as usual. Most schools in the States have continued to educate our kids.



My preschool daughter has a 10 minute pre-recorded session two or three times a week. My lower elementary daughter has 45 minutes to an hour of teleconferences a day. This is not the education I signed up for in the contract.

(Like I said, I am continuing to pay full tuition. But I want to hear the halachik psak.)
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Ema of 5




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, May 07 2020, 10:35 am
This was put out by rabbanim in Far rockaway and the 5T. Unfortunately, there are no names attached to it.....
Also, it is ONLY regarding playgroup, not babysitting and not school.


HALACHIK GUIDELINES REGARDING PLAYGROUPS (AMIDST THE CURRENT COVID-19 CRISIS):

In response to many inquiries regarding playgroup payments during the current pandemic in which they cannot function in their normal capacities, a group of Far  Rockaway/FiveTowns community Rabbanim would like to suggest the following guidelines for our community:

There are precedents in halacha regarding a situation such as ours which the Poskim consider to be a "makas medinah"-- a widespread crisis beyond anyone's control. The
Poskim weigh and evaluate both sides of the equation, and there are divergent opinions on the matter. While services are currently either not being provided at all, or only provided on a minimal scale, this is clearly due to a situation beyond the provider’s
 control. The majority of Poskim therefore hold that the provider cannot be completely penalized, and should be compensated to some degree.

We therefore would like to suggest an approach that has been both approved by our local Rabbanim, as well as adapted in similar communities. It is our recommendation that
 the following p'shara- voluntary compromise between the two parties- be implemented and accepted at this time, given the reality that all are adversely affected by a "makas medinah."

1) Month of March: The payment for the month of March remains with the teachers/morahs and need not be returned to the parents.

2) Months of April and May: For the sake of shalom, we suggest that the teachers and parents agree to a 50/50 split. From a practical standpoint, teachers will only be cashing April’s head check and not the one for May. Once again, this is merely a suggestion. Those parents who are facing financial constraints, should ask their Rav how their own personal situation should be handled. On the flip-side, those who have the financial ability to pay in full (or any amount above our recommendation)- "mah tov u'mah na'im" and "ta'vo a'leihem bracha"- and in many instances (depending on the financial status of the recipient), it can indeed be deducted from one's Ma'aser account. Regarding applying
Ma'aser funds for all or part of the actual 50% amount recommended above, one should consult with his Rav.

3) Month of June: We all hope that the playgroups will be able to resume in June. If they are still unable to open, our suggestion is that teachers should not cash the June payment for the following reasons: This will offset the paid for, but voided, weeks in March (mentioned above), take into account the halachik concept of "po'el ba'tel," and additionally serve to  balance the ratio of school days serviced. 

4) The aforementioned guidelines pertain specifically to those playgroups NOT receiving any form of government assistance (such as unemployment benefits, forgivable loans,
 or other means).

5) The rent paid (by those running the playgroup) to a landlord remains obligatory. (Any and all questions relating to landlord/tenant rental obligations should be brought
 before a Rav/Dayan.) 

6) Important to note: These suggestions are exclusively for playgroups, and are not to be extended to any other form of childcare or educational services. Payment for babysitters
 is a bit more complex, as there are diverse methods and arrangements of compensating for babysitting services (per hr./weekly/monthly, etc.). Tuition payments involve other variables, as well, and the issue warrants its own separate discussion.

In the spirit of compromise, compassion, and concern for all Acheinu B'nei Yisroel, we continue to daven for Siyata Dishmaya to see an end soon to the current crisis, and to merit abundant bracha, hatzlacha, parnassah, gezunt, and nachas ad bli dai IY"H!

With warmest wishes for only Besuros Tovos and Kol Tuv always,
Community Rabbanim of Far Rockaway and the Five Towns
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amother
OP


 

Post Thu, May 07 2020, 10:40 am
Right, I saw that around about playgroups, and similar for babysitting. I'm sure each type of agreement has its own halachos, though - does anyone know of a psak sent around about tuition?
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amother
OP


 

Post Thu, May 07 2020, 10:42 am
Ema of 4 wrote:


4) The aforementioned guidelines pertain specifically to those playgroups NOT receiving any form of government assistance (such as unemployment benefits, forgivable loans,
 or other means).



This line jumped out at me, because my kids' school is receiving forgivable loans (paycheck protection - all funds spent on payroll are 100% forgiven). Do poskim know about this?
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mha3484




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, May 07 2020, 10:53 am
The Chicago Choshen Mishpat Kollel put out a document but I dont know how to post it here. I would email it to you if you were interested.
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amother
Jetblack


 

Post Thu, May 07 2020, 11:08 am
DISCLAIMER: So far I am paying full tuition.
I did ask a Rav as like the OP I wanted to know the Halacha point of view. I was told that Al Pi Din the schools can't demand full. And they can only demand the percentage in proportion to the services being provided (conferences/worksheets etc.).

But again, this is what my Rav told me, he wasn't giving a general psak to the world and so far I am paying full for all my elementary children.. and trying not to think of the PPP loan that I assume they got as well as this PSAK especially as it's not an easy time for me financially..
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amother
OP


 

Post Thu, May 07 2020, 11:27 am
amother [ Jetblack ] wrote:
DISCLAIMER: So far I am paying full tuition.
I did ask a Rav as like the OP I wanted to know the Halacha point of view. I was told that Al Pi Din the schools can't demand full. And they can only demand the percentage in proportion to the services being provided (conferences/worksheets etc.).


I just wonder why some school administrators (my kids' school and another administrator I am acquainted with) don't think it's any halachic shaila?

When I brought this topic up with the other administrator (not my kids' school), he said, "What do you mean? We're doing teleconferences. Of course they should pay full." And the next day he tells me, "I heard from _____ who heard from _____ that Rav Dovid Feinstein said parents should pay tuition." And I wonder, is that how we get a psak? Did Rav Dovid say parents are obligated to pay full? Half? Is it a peshara (compromise)? Lifnim mishuras hadin? The administrator didn't seem to think there was any question in the first place.
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watergirl




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, May 07 2020, 11:28 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I'm sure there are halachos even for wartime. Did the vaad say it is clear-cut halacha that the parents must pay full, or that you must continue to pay full, even though halacha only mandates a percentage, in order to support our childrens' chinuch for the future?

The vaad said we must continue to pay what we were paying unless we’ve come into financial issues in which case to contact the schools. If you want to see the actual email, pm me and I will send it to you.

Their psak was different for playgroups.
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amother
OP


 

Post Thu, May 07 2020, 11:37 am
watergirl wrote:
The vaad said we must continue to pay what we were paying unless we’ve come into financial issues in which case to contact the schools. If you want to see the actual email, pm me and I will send it to you.

Their psak was different for playgroups.


I pm'ed you. Smile

I should probably wait to see the letter, but I'm too curious... Was it as psak from a beis din or posek, or just a city vaad ("committee of influential leaders") recommending/enforcing this decision for the good of our communal mosdos?
Because as far as I've heard, neither the school's nor the parents' financial situation has a bearing on the basic psak regarding how much parents owe in this situation. Of course it can be factored in to a psharah (compromise) or if one should try to go lifnim mishuras hadin.
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amother
Ecru


 

Post Thu, May 07 2020, 12:06 pm
amother [ Jetblack ] wrote:
DISCLAIMER: So far I am paying full tuition.
I did ask a Rav as like the OP I wanted to know the Halacha point of view. I was told that Al Pi Din the schools can't demand full. And they can only demand the percentage in proportion to the services being provided (conferences/worksheets etc.).

But again, this is what my Rav told me, he wasn't giving a general psak to the world and so far I am paying full for all my elementary children.. and trying not to think of the PPP loan that I assume they got as well as this PSAK especially as it's not an easy time for me financially..



Your response is why I think this thread is pointless. Others have said their psak was that they need to continue paying full. Your psak was schools can't demand full. I think if you ask different rabbanim you'll get different answers.

So where does that leave you?
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mha3484




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, May 07 2020, 12:16 pm
My childrens school did sent a detailed letter discussing tuition obligations, the schools financial situation, what government programs they are able to access etc. They had numerous discussions about with community rabbonim, the vaad ha chinuch and the board members as to if they should cash tuition for the rest of the year. They made changes to next years financial aid process because they assume that people will have less means to pay tution.

So while this is not ideal I feel that my kids school is doing their best to both provide meaningful learning and to communicate with the parents.I dont feel the need to ask a shaaila if I should or should not pay. If I felt the school was not providing reasonable educational experiences or did not communicate I would feel very differently. There cant be one psak for everyone.
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amother
OP


 

Post Thu, May 07 2020, 12:16 pm
mha3484 wrote:
The Chicago Choshen Mishpat Kollel put out a document but I dont know how to post it here. I would email it to you if you were interested.


Thanks for sending!
Though I was disappointed that there was no one-size-fits-all psak (I'm a millenial of the "instant generation"), it clearly explained the depth of this question.

To summarize for anyone who might be interested:

It seems that in the case of a makas medina, which means everyone is collectively affected by an unforeseen circumstance, the poskim debate who bears the loss of the oness (forced circumstance). The one who is in possession of the disputed money - in our case, the parent who is being requested to pay full tuition - is considered the "muchzak". In our current situation of makas medina, where the question of who should bear the loss is subject to debate by the poskim, the muchzak cannot be forced to pay the claim against him.
The rabbanim encourage people to go lifnim mishuras hadin if possible. The monetary disagreements - in our case, parents and schools debating how much tuition is owed - should preferably be settled in good faith between the parties. If that isn't possible, they should bring the case before a dayan.

If anyone else out there has seen a psak regarding tuition, I'd love to see it!
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amother
OP


 

Post Thu, May 07 2020, 12:25 pm
amother [ Ecru ] wrote:
Your response is why I think this thread is pointless. Others have said their psak was that they need to continue paying full. Your psak was schools can't demand full. I think if you ask different rabbanim you'll get different answers.

So where does that leave you?


While I personally am continuing to pay tuition, I think parents deserve to know how much halacha obligates them to pay.

In halacha, there is most often is a definitive psak stating who is responsible to pay.

Given that our situation is so complicated, that psak may be more difficult to discern. However, I hear a lot of people quoting "psakim" that are really psharah (compromise) or lifnim mishuras hadin. I would like to see a clear psak that explains what would be the letter of the law, what would be a compromise, and what would be lifnim mishuras hadin.

(I'm curious: is there a posek who has said that parents are obligated min hadin to pay full tuition if the teaching hours are significantly reduced?)

And BTW community vaadim are not necessarily quoting actual psak.
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amother
Coffee


 

Post Thu, May 07 2020, 1:38 pm
I am a playgroup morah. When we closed in March, I asked a shailah about April. The Rav I consulted is a major posek, nationally recognized by klal yisroel. Since I did not ask permission I don't feel comfortable publicizing his name on this forum, although the parents in my group do know. I told him all that I am offering (hour and half of zoom, projects) and told me to ask for full payment but if any parents have a problem with that, we should ask a posek TOGETHER. One parent asked me if she could pay half and I said yes, no need to ask another shailah because I was mevater. The other parents paid in full. The parents were told this in the beginning of the month. For May, I did not ask a shailah I just asked for half which the parents were very happy about, although I cut down the Zoom to 1 hour due to the lower payments. I could easily stop working but I feel I have an obligation to my students. The children love my Zoom classes and the arts and crafts packets I prepare on a bi-weekly basis for them to do at home. I think I am more than fair and frankly, I don't understand a "community psak" as Choshen mishpat questions should be asked by both parties, TOGETHER and from what I understand, not all playgroups are offering much to their students. Why should I get paid the same as someone who is doing a fraction of the work?
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amother
Aqua


 

Post Thu, May 07 2020, 3:03 pm
Maybe it depends what town you live in but I know for me-in lakewood, lots of people are saying that the rabanim woud never come out with a psak because they'd never start up wtih the schools.

I got a letter along with my tution bill that they understand the situation everyone is in but still require full tuitiona nd if you can pay up now until end of year that woudl be great. I was like 'huh'?

I also think that whatever rabanim would say or you work out with school
a)they'd up tution for you next yr to match what you didnt' pay this year
b)won't accept you back again for next yr

so they are basically forcing you to pay no matter what halacha says...
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amother
OP


 

Post Thu, May 07 2020, 5:58 pm
amother [ Coffee ] wrote:
I am a playgroup morah. When we closed in March, I asked a shailah about April. The Rav I consulted is a major posek, nationally recognized by klal yisroel. Since I did not ask permission I don't feel comfortable publicizing his name on this forum, although the parents in my group do know. I told him all that I am offering (hour and half of zoom, projects) and told me to ask for full payment but if any parents have a problem with that, we should ask a posek TOGETHER. One parent asked me if she could pay half and I said yes, no need to ask another shailah because I was mevater. The other parents paid in full. The parents were told this in the beginning of the month. For May, I did not ask a shailah I just asked for half which the parents were very happy about, although I cut down the Zoom to 1 hour due to the lower payments. I could easily stop working but I feel I have an obligation to my students. The children love my Zoom classes and the arts and crafts packets I prepare on a bi-weekly basis for them to do at home. I think I am more than fair and frankly, I don't understand a "community psak" as Choshen mishpat questions should be asked by both parties, TOGETHER and from what I understand, not all playgroups are offering much to their students. Why should I get paid the same as someone who is doing a fraction of the work?


Many of my friends who have 3 year olds say that the Zoom/teleconferences are more of a hindrance than a help, and that the projects require parental input. They signed their 3-year-old up for childcare, and entertainment and projects are only secondary to that.

Can you change a 2-year-old's diaper over Zoom? Can you take a 3-year-old to the bathroom over Zoom? Can you help calm her tantrum? I don't think so. The parents need to do all that now.

Did you ask the parents if they feel that what you are offering is an adequate substitute for the childcare that they signed up for at the beginning of the year?

My 2.5 year old's Morah asked us parents, as soon as playgroup closed, if we are interested in Zoom conferences and projects. None of us were. So she closed up shop and applied for unemployment right then and there. She's doing great, with a higher income than usual due to the extra $600 per week. My 2.5 year old is also doing great, enjoying snacktime, lunchtime, playtime, and a nice long nap. That's a win-win situation.

My point is that playgroup Morahs/schools are not providing the services that parents signed up for, at least not fully. Halachically, there must be some psak as to how much payment they owe.
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