Home
Log in / Sign Up
    Private Messages   Advanced Search   Rules   New User Guide   FAQ   Advertise   Contact Us  
Forum -> Judaism -> Halachic Questions and Discussions
Women are usually bad?
  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  Next



Post new topic   Reply to topic View latest: 24h 48h 72h

imorethanamother




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 10 2020, 4:28 pm
Okay, I already know I'll be disappointed, but I literally have no one to ask about this. In the daf, there's a whole question about whether women can wear tefillin on Shabbos. Long story short, what was previously believed that tefillin is a time-bound mitzvah, is actually not the case, but that women would require a "guf naki" in order to wear one. So, of course, what does that mean? Does it mean that women who no longer menstruate can wear tefillin?

I searched, and found this online:
https://judaism.stackexchange......illin

And it's even more upsetting than I thought. Either we're just gross people, and men are supposedly super fastidious in their cleanliness (huh?), or basically, most women just weren't good people and only men are good.

A lot of times, I'll see women on her explaining to me, (thinking they're being helpful) that we women get as much schar as men for doing way less, and isn't that just awesome? But ultimately, it appears that women aren't considered tzadikim for the most part. Only the very, very few, like Michal daughter of Shaul.

I really wish I had someone who didn't treat me like an idiot to explain this to me.
Back to top

amother
Chartreuse


 

Post Sun, May 10 2020, 4:30 pm
I always thought it had to do with physiology.
Back to top

amother
Pewter


 

Post Sun, May 10 2020, 4:31 pm
Good old fashioned sexism
Back to top

Rappel




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 10 2020, 4:34 pm
Hmmm....I looked into this for a friend in university, who wanted to wear tefillin and tallit privately, as a way to do something more concrete for her tefillah.

I found her many sources, and left her to make her choice. I'd have to retrace my steps to find them all again. But basically:

Tallit/tsitsit = begged Ish, off the table.
Tefillin = should only be worn in a state of purity ie after mikvah, and as such if a woman really wants to wear it, it should only be worn privately, so you're not declaring your menses to the world.

Have I ever met a religious woman who wears tallit or tefillin for tefillah? Never. But there are sources which discuss it, and it's worth exploring, for anyone whom is interested.
Back to top

amother
Lawngreen


 

Post Sun, May 10 2020, 4:38 pm
imorethanamother wrote:
Okay, I already know I'll be disappointed, but I literally have no one to ask about this. In the daf, there's a whole question about whether women can wear tefillin on Shabbos. Long story short, what was previously believed that tefillin is a time-bound mitzvah, is actually not the case, but that women would require a "guf naki" in order to wear one. So, of course, what does that mean? Does it mean that women who no longer menstruate can wear tefillin?

I searched, and found this online:
https://judaism.stackexchange......illin

And it's even more upsetting than I thought. Either we're just gross people, and men are supposedly super fastidious in their cleanliness (huh?), or basically, most women just weren't good people and only men are good.

A lot of times, I'll see women on her explaining to me, (thinking they're being helpful) that we women get as much schar as men for doing way less, and isn't that just awesome? But ultimately, it appears that women aren't considered tzadikim for the most part. Only the very, very few, like Michal daughter of Shaul.

I really wish I had someone who didn't treat me like an idiot to explain this to me.


I think that what will make you look like an idiot is if you wear the tefilin. Similar to what you would look like if you grew a mustache.
Back to top

amother
Peach


 

Post Sun, May 10 2020, 4:38 pm
Tzitzit are not beged ish. They used to be worn by women who held that women are required to.
Back to top

Hillery




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 10 2020, 4:41 pm
I once heard an explanation that guf naki is something hard to maintain (especially nowadays), because it means purity both in body and in spirit. Wearing tefilin without guf naki is not only not a mitzveh, but actually a bizoyon to tefilin and an aveiro.

So men, who are mechuyav to wear tefilin, can't abstain because of a chashash, namely that they might not have a guf naki.

Women, otoh, since they are not mechuyav, shouldn't put themselves in a situation where they might be wearing tefilin without guf naki. Basically if you're not mechuyav to do something, don't go into a situation where the risk of transgression is so high.

BTW even men have changed their tefilin wearing habit because of guf naki. In the times of the gemara people wore tefilin all day, but now it's only worn for davening. For this very same reason, if you're not mechuyav, don't take any risks with kedushas tefilin.
Back to top

imorethanamother




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 10 2020, 4:41 pm
Rappel wrote:
Hmmm....I looked into this for a friend in university, who wanted to wear tefillin and tallit privately, as a way to do something more concrete for her tefillah.

I found her many sources, and left her to make her choice. I'd have to retrace my steps to find them all again. But basically:

Tallit/tsitsit = begged Ish, off the table.
Tefillin = should only be worn in a state of purity ie after mikvah, and as such if a woman really wants to wear it, it should only be worn privately, so you're not declaring your menses to the world.

Have I ever met a religious woman who wears tallit or tefillin for tefillah? Never. But there are sources which discuss it, and it's worth exploring, for anyone whom is interested.


Thank you. Yes, there are various references to women wearing tefillin. Bruriah, Michal, daughters of Rashi. But it wasn't mainstream, and I guess I have to ask why. Women are obligated in tefilah.

In masechta Brachos, it goes into detail about the tefillin that Hashem wears. I know it's a metaphor, but sometimes I think it's sad that only men and Hashem mirror each other in tefilah, and women are really at this disadvantage.
Back to top

Rappel




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 10 2020, 4:44 pm
amother [ Peach ] wrote:
Tzitzit are not beged ish. They used to be worn by women who held that women are required to.


Really? I've never heard that anyone held women are obligated to, since men are not really obligated to wear them daily either, and because it is a time-bound mitzvah.

I remember the Rema permitted it, though he did not recommend it.

My friend followed a funny mixture of the Ben Ish Hai, whom definitely did hold it was begged Ish.
Back to top

imorethanamother




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 10 2020, 4:48 pm
amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:
I think that what will make you look like an idiot is if you wear the tefilin. Similar to what you would look like if you grew a mustache.


If Hashem didn't want women to grow mustaches, He wouldn't have created waxing.
Back to top

amother
Babypink


 

Post Sun, May 10 2020, 4:49 pm
amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:
I think that what will make you look like an idiot is if you wear the tefilin. Similar to what you would look like if you grew a mustache.

I am the first to admit that I am not even remotely sufficiently knowledgeable to answer OP's question, but your response is inane.
Back to top

amother
Cyan


 

Post Sun, May 10 2020, 4:50 pm
Rappel wrote:
Really? I've never heard that anyone held women are obligated to, since men are not really obligated to wear them daily either, and because it is a time-bound mitzvah.

I remember the Rema permitted it, though he did not recommend it.

My friend followed a funny mixture of the Ben Ish Hai, whom definitely did hold it was begged Ish.


IIRC Rashi’s daughters not only learned Gemara they also wore Tefillin. No idea of a source.
Back to top

amother
Lawngreen


 

Post Sun, May 10 2020, 5:03 pm
imorethanamother wrote:
If Hashem didn't want women to grow mustaches, He wouldn't have created waxing.


Lol. Almost too many double negatives for me to follow that one. But still, המבין יבין.
Back to top

imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 10 2020, 6:03 pm
amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:
I think that what will make you look like an idiot is if you wear the tefilin.

Yes, that is precisely the issue with women wearing tefillin. /sarcasm.
Back to top

SuperWify




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 10 2020, 6:12 pm
Rappel wrote:
Hmmm....I looked into this for a friend in university, who wanted to wear tefillin and tallit privately, as a way to do something more concrete for her tefillah.

I found her many sources, and left her to make her choice. I'd have to retrace my steps to find them all again. But basically:

Tallit/tsitsit = begged Ish, off the table.
Tefillin = should only be worn in a state of purity ie after mikvah, and as such if a woman really wants to wear it, it should only be worn privately, so you're not declaring your menses to the world.

Have I ever met a religious woman who wears tallit or tefillin for tefillah? Never. But there are sources which discuss it, and it's worth exploring, for anyone whom is interested.


What’s wrong with announcing your status?-this can’t be the reason because in the times of the BH”MK everyone knew everyone else’s status because of the clothing they wore.
Back to top

MommyM




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 10 2020, 6:15 pm
Hillery wrote:
I once heard an explanation that guf naki is something hard to maintain (especially nowadays), because it means purity both in body and in spirit. Wearing tefilin without guf naki is not only not a mitzveh, but actually a bizoyon to tefilin and an aveiro.

So men, who are mechuyav to wear tefilin, can't abstain because of a chashash, namely that they might not have a guf naki.

Women, otoh, since they are not mechuyav, shouldn't put themselves in a situation where they might be wearing tefilin without guf naki. Basically if you're not mechuyav to do something, don't go into a situation where the risk of transgression is so high.

BTW even men have changed their tefilin wearing habit because of guf naki. In the times of the gemara people wore tefilin all day, but now it's only worn for davening. For this very same reason, if you're not mechuyav, don't take any risks with kedushas tefilin.


This is what I learned too.
Back to top

amother
Lavender


 

Post Sun, May 10 2020, 6:52 pm
I read about a very holy woman who wore tzitzis. She lived recently, about 80 years ago. She also used to give shiurim to men while standing behind a mechitza. If I find a reliable source for this info I’ll post. However, she was unique and extremely spiritual, more than anyone I can imagine in today’s day and age.
Back to top

amother
Coffee


 

Post Sun, May 10 2020, 7:04 pm
imorethanamother wrote:
Okay, I already know I'll be disappointed, but I literally have no one to ask about this. In the daf, there's a whole question about whether women can wear tefillin on Shabbos. Long story short, what was previously believed that tefillin is a time-bound mitzvah, is actually not the case, but that women would require a "guf naki" in order to wear one. So, of course, what does that mean? Does it mean that women who no longer menstruate can wear tefillin?

I searched, and found this online:
https://judaism.stackexchange......illin

And it's even more upsetting than I thought. Either we're just gross people, and men are supposedly super fastidious in their cleanliness (huh?), or basically, most women just weren't good people and only men are good.

A lot of times, I'll see women on her explaining to me, (thinking they're being helpful) that we women get as much schar as men for doing way less, and isn't that just awesome? But ultimately, it appears that women aren't considered tzadikim for the most part. Only the very, very few, like Michal daughter of Shaul.

I really wish I had someone who didn't treat me like an idiot to explain this to me.


I saw your comment(s) on the Daf thread, but I didn’t reply, because there is really no satisfactory answer (at least not one that I have found). There was a very long thread about this a couple of years ago ( https://www.imamother.com/foru.....39945 ) and I don’t believe there was any resolution . . .
Back to top

amother
Puce


 

Post Sun, May 10 2020, 7:32 pm
Hillery wrote:
I once heard an explanation that guf naki is something hard to maintain (especially nowadays), because it means purity both in body and in spirit. Wearing tefilin without guf naki is not only not a mitzveh, but actually a bizoyon to tefilin and an aveiro.

So men, who are mechuyav to wear tefilin, can't abstain because of a chashash, namely that they might not have a guf naki.


So you're saying that most people who wear tefillin don't have a guf naki, based on the "purity of body and spirit", which is so difficult to achieve. But because OTHER people don't know for sure that they're not, they can still wear it. But only if they're men. Women are always suspected to NOT be pure in body and spirit, because women are bad, which is the title of this post. And my question.

So by definition, men then should be reshaim, because they're constantly getting aveiros by virtue of not being on this spiritual high plane for every moment that they wear tefillin. I mean, most 13 year olds probably don't have a guf naki yet. But yet we celebrate their wearing of tefillin, which is weird because according to this, they're just garnering aveiros instead. Instead, we always accord them the benefit of the doubt that they ARE pure in body and spirit, but not women. Instead, women have to be a tzadekes BEFORE they are allowed to wear tefillin, which they technically should be, because they're not getting all those aveiros that men have been getting for the non-guf-naki situation.


Hillery wrote:
Women, otoh, since they are not mechuyav, shouldn't put themselves in a situation where they might be wearing tefilin without guf naki. Basically if you're not mechuyav to do something, don't go into a situation where the risk of transgression is so high.


But we do not do this with ANYTHING else. No one refuses to do a mitzvah because the risk of not doing the mitzvah in the most perfect way possible is too high.

Hillery wrote:
BTW even men have changed their tefilin wearing habit because of guf naki. In the times of the gemara people wore tefilin all day, but now it's only worn for davening. For this very same reason, if you're not mechuyav, don't take any risks with kedushas tefilin.


The gemara talks about men being able to wear tefillin in the bathroom. And putting them near a bathroom where mice might run away with the tefillin, or they might be within sight of bodily waste, and yet not once did it say that perhaps men shouldn't wear tefillin at all because they might not do the mitzvah in clean circumstances.
Back to top

Simple1




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 10 2020, 7:39 pm
I learned that men also need a guf naki - which would mean not having to use the bathroom. It can be hard to be in the right state, but being that men are obligated, they don't nitpick. And because women aren't obligated, they are advised to avoid the dilemma altogether and not wear tefillin.
Back to top
Page 1 of 9   1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  Next Recent Topics




Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum -> Judaism -> Halachic Questions and Discussions

Related Topics Replies Last Post
[ Poll ] How much do you usually spend on a baby gift?
by amother
15 Today at 8:05 pm View last post
by ynms
S/O Women and megilla
by corolla
2 Mon, Mar 25 2024, 3:40 pm View last post
List of frum women's clothing websites
by amother
6 Thu, Mar 14 2024, 5:19 pm View last post
Women's Trip to Europe/Israel
by Mide7
0 Wed, Mar 06 2024, 9:33 am View last post
Women's gym 15th and low 4os?
by Blimie1
2 Mon, Feb 19 2024, 10:58 pm View last post