Women are usually bad?

amother

Cerulean

Tue, May 12 2020, 8:06 am

imorethanamother wrote:

Not every woman is the same. And in fact, there are a few sources I've come across that imply that female and male neshamos may be placed in the wrong gender body. Rabbi Glatstein has a whole shiur on Akeidas Yitzchak that it was a true blessing, because he actually DID die on the altar and killed off the female neshama he had inside him in exchange for a male one.

In this particular case, with our topic, many discuss that Queen Michal was able to wear tefillin because she realized she had a male neshama inside her, which was the reason why she couldn't have children.

At the very least, perhaps male and female are not as cut and dried as you think.

The point is that not every woman is made in the cookie cutter mold you expect. Bruriah was very un-female like, and was correct when she challenged R' Meir on daaten kalos hein, but she could have simply said that there are exceptions to every rule. (I make a far greater mistake than she does, by assuming all women are smart enough to learn Gemara. ) I was surrounded by brilliant women, growing up. And even these days, when my friends husbands are never home and we all have to help our sons with mishnayos and gemara homework.

Not every man is a gemara genius - many of them actually like parenting and housework much better than going out to be the breadwinner. Well, actually, I'm totally wrong. NO ONE LIKES HOUSEWORK. But some are much more feminine and some women are much more masculine.

No one is saying we need to start chopping off appendages, but we can't be so rigid in our role structure. If Hashem wanted us all to be the same, He would have made us all the same. He didn't.

I happen to be from (maybe the few) who enjoy housework, but I also love textual learning.
I would love to learn gemara, but I do not feel it is right.
I dont worry about different communities teaching girls gemara- I think we could all live and let live.
I do think that everyone is smart enough to learn gemara if given the skills.

CiCi

Tue, May 12 2020, 8:34 am

Aylat wrote:

Cici, couldn't you have responded to my or imorethanamother's post by saying "oops, I was mistaken. I see that there are indeed sources that (seem to?) say that women are less clean. You posted them earlier in the thread, sorry I missed that." And then continue to make your point.

You made a statement which is false. It would bolster not detract from your argument if you acknowledged that.

Well, I'm not really sure that's the case. My initial reaction when reading the link after writing all my posts besides for the last one, and I saw that there are sources saying that it's harder for a women to have a gif nuki, I thought that what I wrote about this was wrong. However upon further analyzation I'm not so sure what I wrote was wrong.

You see many here were saying that some Rabbis were saying women are more unclean than men pointing to various sources. However upon examining deeper they don't appear to state that women are less clean than men. These sources are specifically talking about gif nuki which is only used when talking about tefillin, not cleanliness in general, in other areas and at other times. So the question is what is gif nuki? So there are many answers not specifically relating to physical cleanliness. Since flatulence was discussed repeatedly in this thread, I will bring this as an example that it doesn't mean women pass more wind. While passing wind is against halacha while wearing tefillin, not all sources bring not having flatulence as the meaning of gif nuki. Furthmore, it never says anywhere that women have more flatulence than men only that because of flatulence since women are not mechiav to wear tefillin they shouldn't do so. Not having a gif nuki can mean due to menstruation (Maharam) and that is not in any way, shape or form a remark regarding women being more unclean than men. Gif nuki also means not having unclean thoughts while wearing tefillin which doesn't mean women have dirtier thoughts then men ( if that would be the case the men would be behind the mechitza...). But since women's thought patterns are different than mens and men could focus on one task at a time, in this case the wearing of tefillin, while women can have many different thoughts and focus on different tasks at once, they may transgress more easily having impure thoughts...even if that only means thinking about changing the babies diaper...

In short, it was not specifically physical cleanliness that the Rabbis were talking about because they would talk about women's uncleanliness in comparison to men not specifically related to gif nuki. The sources here relate specifically to gif nuki which is a term only used when wearing tefillin and it could mean many different things, not only physical cleanliness.

Last edited by CiCi on Tue, May 12 2020, 9:15 am; edited 1 time in total

malki2

Tue, May 12 2020, 9:04 am

Imorethanamother, I’m not sure what your issue with my answer was.

From Women’s Health:

Fecal Incontinence (a cause of flatulence) in Younger Women
Women who have delivered large babies or who had a difficult childbirth may experience fecal incontinence after delivery. Prolonged and difficult labors can cause nerve damage and weaken pelvic muscles and the supporting structures of the uterus, bladder and rectum and can cause permanent nerve damage. This can lead to pelvic organ prolapse (in which organs such as the bladder, uterus, bowel or rectum drop or sag) and to fecal incontinence. About one in every three women experiences pelvic floor prolapse, whether due to childbirth or as a natural part of aging.

6. You Just Had a Baby
No shocker here: Squeezing something the size of a watermelon out of your nethers can damage the muscles and nerves around the backside, turning you into a farting machine. One Swedish study found up to 25 percent of women had problems holding in their flatulence for up to five months after giving birth, especially after long labors. Sadly, Ganjhu says that if you've recently given birth and find yourself gassy, you'll have to wait things out.

CiCi

Tue, May 12 2020, 9:07 am

malki2 wrote:

This is also a valid point. Pregnancy can cause hardship in keeping a gif nuki.

Aylat

Tue, May 12 2020, 9:18 am

CiCi wrote:

Well, I'm not really sure that's the case. My initial reaction when reading the link after writing all my posts besides for the last one, and I saw that there are sources saying women are more unclean than men, I thought that what I wrote about this was wrong. However upon further analyzation I'm not so sure what I wrote was wrong.

You see many here were saying that some Rabbis were saying women are more unclean than men pointing to various sources. However upon examining deeper they don't appear to state that women are less clean than men. These sources are specifically talking about gif nuki which is only used when talking about tefillin, not cleanliness in general, in other areas and at other times. So the question is what is gif nuki? So there are many answers not specifically relating to physical cleanliness. Since flatulence was discussed repeatedly in this thread, I will bring this as an example that it doesn't mean women pass more wind. While passing wind is against halacha while wearing tefillin, not all sources bring not having flatulence as the meaning of gif nuki. Furthmore, it never says anywhere that women have more flatulence than men only that because of flatulence since women are not mechiav to wear tefillin they shouldn't do so. Not having a gif nuki can mean due to menstruation (Maharam) and that is not in any way, shape or form a remark regarding women being more unclean than men. Gif nuki also means not having unclean thoughts while wearing tefillin which doesn't mean women have dirtier thoughts then men ( if that would be the case the men would be behind the mechitza...). But since women's thought patterns are different than mens and men could focus on one task at a time, in this case the wearing of tefillin, while women can have many different thoughts and focus on different tasks at once, they may transgress more easily having impure thoughts...even if that only means thinking about changing the babies diaper...

In short, it was not specifically physical cleanliness that the Rabbis were talking about because they would talk about women's uncleanliness in comparison to men not specifically related to gif nuki. The sources here relate specifically to gif nuki which is a term only used when wearing tefillin and it could mean many different things, not only physical cleanliness.

You wrote, "There was no source that was bought forth saying that women are less clean than men. It was an erroneous conclusion not based on any source."

That is not true. There are sources. You have an explanation for what those sources mean that is not insulting to women - great. But the sources are there and they are written clearly and concisely: "women are not careful about cleanliness." Hence the original question of this thread. You cannot rebuke people for having this question and you cannot accuse them of making things up.

It would increase my respect for you if you had admitted this.

Aylat

Tue, May 12 2020, 9:19 am

malki2 wrote:

This is an interesting point and could also possibly answer the question.

hotzenplotz

Tue, May 12 2020, 9:37 am

amother [ Ginger ] wrote:

Not just when it touches their perceived skill, I’m telling you some men think women are superior, just for being a woman.
Just like some women think men are superior.
Men are usually just more quiet about those feelings, but it’s out there.

Ginger, you are so perceptive.
My husband is a deep thinker.
My husband thinks women run the world behind the scenes. He is so sure of himself, he will explain how the women he knows had a subtle, quite, underhanded (often in a good way) on all his friends.
(This precludes men who are downright abusive...)

CiCi

Tue, May 12 2020, 10:35 am

Aylat wrote:

Ok here's what I've copied from the link. Anyone correct me if there's something wrong with the sources he brings:

"Many poskim writing about women and tefillin, repeat Tosafot's wording that women "are not diligent about maintaining a clean body, without going into detail about what the problem entails(cf. Kol Bo 21; Eliyah Rabba OC 38:2; Mishnah Berurah OC 38:3, note 13)."

If there's no details then how do you know what they mean with gif nuki and what kind of cleanliness that entails? It is not conclusive.

"Even though the nature of this cleanliness is seldom specified, some have written that this physical condition has to do with a cultural period of women being less hygienic than men. Eliyah Rabba, for example, writes:

ולי מסתבר דדורות אחרונים החמירו בזה, כי ראו שאין הנשים בזמן הזה זריזות כל כך, לכן החמירו למחות בכולן שלא יצא תקלה ממנו:

It seems to me that being stringent in the later generations [after the Talmudic era] has to do with the fact that women these days are not so diligent [about cleanliness], and this is why there is a stringency to protest their wearing tefillin."

That is not a general opinion of women being dirtier, it specifically says it's only about the cultural atmosphere of the time.

"This implies that women can potentially attain "a clean body," and Magen Avraham (OC 38:3) says as much:

מפני שצריכין גוף נקי ונשים אינם זריזות להזהר אבל אם היו חייבים לא היו פטורין מה"ט דהוי רמי אנפשייהו ומזדהרי כנ"ל דלא כע"ת

[We protest] because they need a clean body and women are not diligent about being careful. But if they were obligated to wear tefillin, they wouldn't be exempt for this reason. Rather, they would need to take the risk and be more careful [to maintain a clean body]."

This is the only source I see that references women in general being unclean. So there is one source saying that in general women are not diligent in their cleanliness.

Therefore I will apologize since there is a source that I missed saying women are generally unclean.

amother

Ginger

Tue, May 12 2020, 10:44 am

CiCi wrote:

Interesting.
It actually points out pretty clearly that:
1. It has to do with the times. It’s not a biological difference.
2. If they were obligated they would need to put on tefillin anyway.

So it seems we’re all really saying the same things, that:

1. Women are not less clean. Today.
2. They are not obligated.

Still, it’s a man’s mitzva.
My husband never asks to do the hafrashas challah 😊.

CiCi

Tue, May 12 2020, 10:47 am

Aylat wrote:

You cannot rebuke people for having this question and you cannot accuse them of making things up.

I have NEVER rebuked anyone for having a question. I have rebuked for the disrespect that has repeatedly been shown to the comments of Chazal, the Talmud, Rabbonim, mesorah.

It is inexcusable. We can try to analyze what they mean but they don't have to answer to us.

I will not cut and paste from the entire thread, here's the OPs comment that is just one example ( and there are worse comments);

Quote:

And it's even more upsetting than I thought. Either we're just gross people, and men are supposedly super fastidious in their cleanliness (huh?), or basically, most women just weren't good people and only men are good.

And besides this is a deliberate misrepresention of the view that our Rabbis held of women by choosing a few out of context verses so that complainers can validate their complaint.

A question must be asked with due respect and with the acknowledgement that we are not talmidei chochumim .

Last edited by CiCi on Tue, May 12 2020, 11:04 am; edited 5 times in total

Aylat

Tue, May 12 2020, 10:51 am

CiCi wrote:

Thank you for your apology/retraction.
There are multiple sources, not one.
Do you read/understand Hebrew sources? I earlier quoted the Taz, Biur haGra and Pri Megadim as saying "women are not careful to be clean." I can repost with a translation if you want. Imasoftov quoted (I think) the Maharam. You quoted Tosafot.

Thank you for the quote from the Magen Avraham. Can't believe I missed that one, it's right on the same page as the other mefarshim on Shulchan Aruch I quoted. My bad. The Magen Avraham supports my suggestion, based on the Pri Megadim, that there is a concern that anyone doing the mitzva on a voluntary basis, both women and slaves, will not be careful enough to keep the high standards of cleanliness required (in the first instance: not passing wind as delineated in the preceding halacha in Shulchan Aruch).