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Women are usually bad?
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amother
Coffee


 

Post Tue, May 12 2020, 10:53 am
amother [ Ginger ] wrote:
Interesting.
It actually points out pretty clearly that:
1. It has to do with the times. Itโ€™s not a biological difference.
2. If they were obligated they would need to put on tefillin anyway.

So it seems weโ€™re all really saying the same things, that:

1. Women are not less clean. Today.
2. They are not obligated.

Still, itโ€™s a manโ€™s mitzva.
My husband never asks to do the hafrashas challah ๐Ÿ˜Š.


Just want to point out that hafrashas challah is not a mitzvah that was given only to women. As with hadlakos neiros, women are given priority with regard to performing the mitzvah, but both men and women are equally obligated.
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amother
Ginger


 

Post Tue, May 12 2020, 10:57 am
amother [ Coffee ] wrote:
Just want to point out that hafrashas challah is not a mitzvah that was given only to women. As with hadlakos neiros, women are given priority with regard to performing the mitzvah, but both men and women are equally obligated.


Right.
Women just take precedence.
Men definitely have more mitzvos, no one can argue about that!
We can only argue about โ€œwhy?โ€

The reason is NOT that women are inferior. Really really not.
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Aylat




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 12 2020, 10:58 am
amother [ Coffee ] wrote:
Just want to point out that hafrashas challah is not a mitzvah that was given only to women. As with hadlakos neiros, women are given priority with regard to performing the mitzvah, but both men and women are equally obligated.


Supporting this point.

Hafrashat challa is an obligation pertaining to the dough. If it meets the requirements then someone has to take challa. No dough, no hafrashat challa.

Tefillin is an obligation on the person (man). If there are tefillin on a shelf, no one needs to go and put them on. The obligation is for a man to put on tefillin each day and if he doesn't have, he has to find a pair somehow.
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amother
Coffee


 

Post Tue, May 12 2020, 10:59 am
Aylat wrote:
Supporting this point.

Hafrashat challa is an obligation pertaining to the dough. If it meets the requirements then someone has to take challa. No dough, no hafrashat challa.

Tefillin is an obligation on the person (man). If there are tefillin on a shelf, no one needs to go and put them on. The obligation is for a man to put on tefillin each day and if he doesn't have, he has to find a pair somehow.


Very Brisk: cheftza vs. gavra (lol)
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CiCi




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 12 2020, 11:08 am
Aylat wrote:
Thank you for your apology/retraction.
There are multiple sources, not one.
Do you read/understand Hebrew sources? I earlier quoted the Taz, Biur haGra and Pri Megadim as saying "women are not careful to be clean." I can repost with a translation if you want. Imasoftov quoted (I think) the Maharam. You quoted Tosafot.


I have not followed the entire thread from the beginning, but if you say that's what they write then I believe you. However, oftentimes there are lengthy explanations offered by other sources and in surrounding verses, so read in context they may refer to something different than the quoted verse(s).
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malki2




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 12 2020, 12:29 pm
Aylat wrote:
This is an interesting point and could also possibly answer the question.


I made this point yesterday. People did not appreciate the idea that women cannot control their flatulence.


Last edited by malki2 on Tue, May 12 2020, 12:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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malki2




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 12 2020, 12:32 pm
dancingqueen wrote:
Iโ€™m a little surprised by the explanation that women fart more, when generally women try to be much more demure than men about that kind of thing. Perhaps things were different then.


The explanation given is that while men are definitely less inhibited about farting in public, women definitely do have a harder time controlling their farts, due to the given reasons. According to the study that I read, womenโ€™s farts also smell 2.7 times worse than menโ€™s.
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Aylat




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 12 2020, 1:08 pm
amother [ Coffee ] wrote:
Very Brisk: cheftza vs. gavra (lol)


Yep, was thinking that as I wrote.
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amother
Magenta


 

Post Tue, May 12 2020, 3:40 pm
The scholarship exhibited by women on this thread has really wowed me.
I would like to offer 2 perspectives that arenโ€™t based on text, rather more on (what I perceive to be) common sense.
1)
men and women are apples and oranges. We are different creations. Separate but equal. We have (generally speaking) different bodies, different emotional, spiritual and mental composition.
We donโ€™t NEED tefillin for our spiritual growth (or minyan or many other mitzvos) like men do. Our spiritual growth is attained in different ways than theirs, as we are not in the same category. Think of 2 students, equally bright but with different mental strengths. One will do well in math but need a science tutor and vice versa in the other student. Neither is superior to the other, yet they require different tools to bring them to fill their potential.
Men are not inherently superior to us, nor are we to them.

2)
In modern society, women generally feel a need to prove themselves equally capable as men. This may follow the misconception that accomplishments (mainly financial or external) are a measure of success and competence.
Women with children are definitely at a disadvantage to men in these areas. We arenโ€™t as physically strong and our careers often cannot be our main focus.
When we define ourselves in relation to success in a manโ€™s world, we will always be playing catch-up as we are inherently at a disadvantage.
Women are meant to be celebrated for being women. Different than men, with our own unique contributions to the world. When we redefine ourselves, measuring success against our womanly potential, the question of
our worth in relation to men becomes far less of an issue.
To illustrate, a farmer and a doctor both bring huge benefit to mankind. Neither should be comparing himself to the other. Each one has his own inherent worth, and neither can survive without the other.
To summarize, if we ourselves knew our own value, and didnโ€™t constantly question our worth in relation to men, we would be in a far better place. There would be no inferiority complex and therefore the ambiguity in Chazalโ€™s statements would not automatically be assumed to be degrading to women.
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amother
Blush


 

Post Tue, May 12 2020, 3:45 pm
Didnt see mentioned anywhere, just a thought... may be 1 reason this particular mitzvah is discouraged is because it exposes her biceps? Just a thought, no tomatoes please...
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Aylat




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 12 2020, 3:55 pm
amother [ Blush ] wrote:
Didnt see mentioned anywhere, just a thought... may be 1 reason this particular mitzvah is discouraged is because it exposes her biceps? Just a thought, no tomatoes please...


This is an interesting thought, but I'm not aware of this being cited as a reason by any source. Happy to be corrected.
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amother
Ginger


 

Post Tue, May 12 2020, 4:00 pm
delete. Double post.
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amother
Ginger


 

Post Tue, May 12 2020, 4:03 pm
I tried copying and pasting the article above but when doing that the Hebrew got messed around. Sorry!
Will try again.
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Aylat




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 12 2020, 4:12 pm
amother [ Magenta ] wrote:
The scholarship exhibited by women on this thread has really wowed me.
I would like to offer 2 perspectives that arenโ€™t based on text, rather more on (what I perceive to be) common sense.
1)
men and women are apples and oranges. We are different creations. Separate but equal. We have (generally speaking) different bodies, different emotional, spiritual and mental composition.
We donโ€™t NEED tefillin for our spiritual growth (or minyan or many other mitzvos) like men do. Our spiritual growth is attained in different ways than theirs, as we are not in the same category. Think of 2 students, equally bright but with different mental strengths. One will do well in math but need a science tutor and vice versa in the other student. Neither is superior to the other, yet they require different tools to bring them to fill their potential.
Men are not inherently superior to us, nor are we to them.

2)
In modern society, women generally feel a need to prove themselves equally capable as men. This may follow the misconception that accomplishments (mainly financial or external) are a measure of success and competence.
Women with children are definitely at a disadvantage to men in these areas. We arenโ€™t as physically strong and our careers often cannot be our main focus.
When we define ourselves in relation to success in a manโ€™s world, we will always be playing catch-up as we are inherently at a disadvantage.
Women are meant to be celebrated for being women. Different than men, with our own unique contributions to the world. When we redefine ourselves, measuring success against our womanly potential, the question of
our worth in relation to men becomes far less of an issue.
To illustrate, a farmer and a doctor both bring huge benefit to mankind. Neither should be comparing himself to the other. Each one has his own inherent worth, and neither can survive without the other.
To summarize, if we ourselves knew our own value, and didnโ€™t constantly question our worth in relation to men, we would be in a far better place. There would be no inferiority complex and therefore the ambiguity in Chazalโ€™s statements would not automatically be assumed to be degrading to women.


I agree with much of this. I do not feel inferior as a woman. I am secure in my female-ness. I instinctively feel that I am of value and my actions have significance. I have no problem with the idea of equal but different.

The question that imorethanamother and amother Coffee are asking is how to understand statements of Chazal that seem to contradict my belief that I am equal (though different) to men.

The thread was triggered by sources saying women aren't as clean as men. This reads at face-value as a derogatory comment. I have arrived at an understanding of these sources that satisfies me as not being insulting. (Thank you to those posters who contributed to this.) I can't speak for imorethanamother/coffee and others; they may not be satisfied with my answer.

One of the things I have been trying to convey here and on the darchei noam thread is that there's a personality that is not content with hearing, "don't worry, there are good answers, it's all okay." We want to know (insofar as possible) what the answers ARE. We ask questions not to challenge the edifice of Torah, nor because we are insecure, but because we really want to understand.
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amother
Ginger


 

Post Tue, May 12 2020, 4:13 pm
ื”ืืฉื” ื‘ื™ืฉืจืืœ
This article was written by a kallah teacher I know, enjoy. Itโ€™s long but offers a nice perspective.

*This article was adapted from a shiur by ื–ืฆ"ืœ ื”ื’ืจ"ืฉ ืคื™ื ืงื•ืก on the topic of The Essence of the Jewish Woman. Some explanations added to facilitate for Kallahs.
The most important ingredient in ืฉืœื•ื ื‘ื™ืช is that each side, husband and wife should understand their role and obligation, to ื”' and to each other.
It says "ืืฉืจื™ ื”ืื™ืฉ ืืฉืจ ืœื ื”ืœืš ื‘ืขืฆืช ืจืฉืขื™ื...ื›ื™ ืื ื‘ืชื•ืจืช ื”' ื—ืคืฆื• ื•ื‘ืชื•ืจืชื• ื™ื”ื’ื” ื™ื•ืžื ื•ืœื™ืœื”" -
Fortunate is the one who doesnโ€™t follow bad waysโ€ฆ but rather follows the Torah. Everyone has a Torah to follow in life.
The rich man should concentrate on his Torah, the poor man on his Torah. Etc. Everyone should concentrate on their own obligations.
In a marriage, the husband should focus on his obligations and the wife on hers.
A Manโ€™s Obligations:
Pretty easy to define. To learn ืชื•ืจื” as much as he can, and to support it as much as he can, Marry, ืคืจื• ื•ืจื‘ื•, ืœื•ืœื‘ & ืืชืจื•ื’, ืกื•ื›ื” etc. (Many of the ืžืฆื•ื•ืช that are ืฉื”ื–ืžืŸ ื’ืจืžืŸ women arenโ€™t ื—ื™ื™ื‘ in. Some of these ืžืฆื•ื•ืช women were ืžืงื‘ืœ on themselves but men are much more obligated).
Womanโ€™s Obligations:
To understand it we need some background of the woman and her role.
Background:
When ื”' created the world, in the heights of the heavens there were "ืฉื ื™ ืžืื•ืจื•ืช ื”ื’ื“ื•ืœื™ื" - the sun and the moon.
We know that the sun and the moon are a mashal to the man and the woman.
Theyโ€™re like a mother and father to the world and bring lots of blessing to the world. (Rav Pincus).
The ื’ืžืจื says:
Thereโ€™s a contradiction. The ืคืกื•ืง starts by telling us ืืช ืฉื ื™ ื”ืžืื•ืจื•ืช ื”ื’ื“ื•ืœื™ื (the two big luminaries) and then it says ืืช ื”ืžืื•ืจ ื”ื’ื“ื•ืœ ืœืžืžืฉืœืช ื‘ื™ื•ื ื•ืืช ื”ืžืื•ืจ ื”ืงื˜ืŸ ืœืžืžืฉืœืช ื‘ืœื™ืœื”. (The big one to rule by day, the small one to rule at night).
Q. Why?
A. At first they were the same size, but the moon complained and said โ€œืื™ืŸ ืฉื ื™ ืžืœื›ื™ื ืžืฉืžืฉื™ื ื‘ื›ืชืจ ืื—ื“โ€ (two kings canโ€™t share the same crown).
The implication was โ€œI should be bigger than the sunโ€. ื”' said โ€œืœื›ื™ ื•ืžืขื˜ื™ ืืช ืขืฆืžืš โ€œ - so go make yourself smaller.
This ื’ืžืจื is pretty famous, almost everyone knows it. But the ื’ืžืจื continues, and this part is much less famous:
The moon was extremely hurt!
She said โ€œI said something correct, why do I deserve to become smaller?
ื”' said sheโ€™s right. And ื”' decided to appease the moon.
So ื”' said โ€œืœื›ืŸ ืืจื‘ื” ืืช ื—ื™ืœืšโ€- Iโ€™ll give you armies of stars! But she wasnโ€™t happy. So ื”' said: I see youโ€™re still insulted that youโ€™re called ืงื˜ืŸ so realize โ€œืฆื“ื™ืงื™ื ื™ืงืจืื• ื‘ืฉืžืšโ€- big ืฆื“ื™ืงื™ื will be called ืงื˜ืŸ like you. ื™ืขืงื‘ ืื‘ื™ื ื• is called โ€œื™ืขืงื‘ ื‘ื ื• ื”ืงื˜ืŸโ€, and by ื“ื•ื“ ื”ืžืœืš it says โ€œื“ื•ื“ ื”ื•ื ื”ืงื˜ืŸโ€.. But the moon was still not appeased.
So then ื”' said โ€œื”ื‘ื™ืื• ืขืœื™ ื›ืคืจื” ืฉืžื™ืขื˜ืชื™ ืืช ื”ื™ืจื—โ€
Which means as follows:
ื”' said on ืจืืฉ ื—ื•ื“ืฉ we have special ืงืจื‘ื ื•ืช and one of the ืงืจื‘ื ื•ืช is a ื—ื˜ืืช which is for ื›ืคืจื” - for atonement. It says ื•ืฉืขื™ืจ ืขื–ื™ื ืœื—ื˜ืืช ืœื”' - a chatas for ื”' , a ื›ืคืจื” for ื”', so to speak. Because ื”' said youโ€™re right, I did something wrong and this ืงืจื‘ืŸ is to atone for that, kivyachol.
Q. If ื”' agreed with the moon, why bring a ืงืจื‘ืŸ?? Why not make the moon big again, like it used to be? A ืงืจื‘ืŸ you bring after you fixed things up, so why are we not fixing it and just bringing a ืงืจื‘ืŸ ื—ื˜ืืช?
A. This fixed it. This appeased the moon.
Because: Originally, they were ืฉื ื™ ืžืื•ืจื•ืช ื”ื’ื“ื•ืœื™ื, two big luminaries.
ืจื‘ื™ื ื• ื‘ื—ื™ื™: This does not mean there were two suns. No.
The sun was a ball of fire- a ball of energy.
And the moon was a reflection of that.
But they were facing each other with 100 percent concentration of each other, like a perfect mirror. (later they werenโ€™t).
And just like by a mirror - if you stand in front of it - all of the beauty of the person standing in front of the mirror will reflect in the mirror. Same too with the sun and the moon.
The moon is like a mirror.
In the beginning they were facing each other - just like when you put a flashlight in front of a mirror- you really canโ€™t tell whereโ€™s the flashlight and whereโ€™s the mirror - they both shed light, even though one is the origin of light and one is the reflection of the light. Thatโ€™s how it was.
But thereโ€™s a question:
Q. If this was the case why did the moon complain that she wants to be bigger than the sun? You canโ€™t be bigger than what you reflect!?
This is the big question.
But thatโ€™s exactly what the moon was saying and complaining about.
She said: The sun gets its ื›ื— (energy) from ื”', and I only get mine from the sun!
It says โ€œื›ื™ ืขืžืš ืžืงื•ืจ ื—ื™ื™ื ื‘ืื•ืจืš ื ืจืื” ืื•ืจโ€ - the source of light is from ื”'- the sunโ€™s light is from ื”'โ€™s light.
And the moon only gets it from the sun because the moon is a reflection of the sun.
That was her complaint. I donโ€™t want to get it from the sun, I want to get it straight from ื”'!
The moon basically asked: To connect to ื”' straight. Thatโ€™s clear, because you obviously canโ€™t be bigger than what you reflect. So it canโ€™t be that she wanted to be bigger in SIZE than the sun.
Q. Why did she care?
A. There can be two reasons why she wanted to get her koach straight from ื”':
1. She was jealous.
2. Maybe in reality really she really just wants to feel close to ื”'.
So, everything we said up until now was just to test the moon! When ื”' said she will get stars, if she was jealous, she would now be happy because now sheโ€™s even better than the sun, she has stars, sheโ€™s more special! But she said no, Iโ€™m not jealous, thatโ€™s not my issue, โ€œI want to be close to ื”'โ€. And she wasnโ€™t appeased.
So ื”' tested her again with โ€œืฆื“ื™ืงื™ื ื™ืงืจืื• ื‘ืฉืžืšโ€ - being called ืงื˜ืŸ is actually pretty special- big ืฆื“ื™ืงื™ื weโ€™re called like that! But she said no, Iโ€™m not jealous, thatโ€™s not the issue, I want to be close to ื”'! And I said something which is correct, I donโ€™t want to ONLY reflect the sun.
So ื”' said : โ€œื”ื‘ื™ืื• ืขืœื™ ื›ืคืจื” ืฉืžื™ืขื˜ืชื™ ืืช ื”ื™ืจื—โ€.
Which means: (will explain in short why this appeased her).
The whole issue of ืจืืฉ ื—ื“ืฉ is what actually in practicality appeases the moon.
Because, ืจืืฉ ื—ื“ืฉ is the basis of ALL the ืžื•ืขื“ื™ื, ืจืืฉ ื”ืฉื ื”, ื™ื•ื ื›ื™ืคื•ืจ, ืกื•ื›ื•ืช, ืคืกื—, ืฉื‘ื•ืขื•ืช, etc.
The NATURAL phenomenon of ืจืืฉ ื—ื“ืฉ is the ืžื•ืœื“, the birth of the new moon. When the moon is completely facing the sun itโ€™s a full moon, when itโ€™s turned away, itโ€™s half a moon, a quarter moon, three quarters moon etc. ืžื•ืœื“ means the FIRST CONNECTION between the sun and the moon. This is the natural phenomenon of ืจืืฉ ื—ื“ืฉ, in NATURE.
However: According to the ืชื•ืจื”, the ืžื•ืœื“ is still not what ultimately decides ืจืืฉ ื—ื“ืฉ, even though you would think it should.
Because: We have ืชื•ืจื” reasons to change when ืจืืฉ ื—ื“ืฉ is. For example:
1. We donโ€™t want ื™ื•ื ื›ื™ืคื•ืจ to ever fall out on a Sunday or a Friday.
2. We donโ€™t want ื”ื•ืฉืขื ื ืจื‘ื to be on Shabbos. Etc.
So if the natural ืžื•ืœื“ comes out as above, we push off ืจืืฉ ื—ื“ืฉ!
So here we see that the ืžื•ืœื“, the birth of the moon is not depending on the sun but depending on the decision of ืชื•ืจื”. And whoโ€™s the decision of ืชื•ืจื”? ื”'!
So thatโ€™s why now the moon was happy.
She wanted to be attached to ื”', not dependant on the sun, and on ืจืืฉ ื—ื“ืฉ she has what she wants, ืจืืฉ ื—ื“ืฉ is the decision of ืชื•ืจื” which is the decision of ื”'.
The above is a very deepื’ืžืจื . And Itโ€™s a ืžืฉืœ.
Bottom line: The whole issue of a man and a woman is really the issue between the sun and the moon.
In modern times, the nonreligious world has a lot of complaints about the differences between men and women.
We see men have many ืžืฆื•ื•ืช that women donโ€™t: ืกื•ื›ื”, ืœื•ืœื‘, ืฉื•ืคืจ, many ืžืฆื•ื•ืช ืฉื”ื–ืžืŸ ื’ืจืžื (some they were ืžืงื‘ืœ, like ืฉื•ืคืจ - โ€œืงื™ื‘ืœื• ืขืœื™ื”ืŸ ื›ื—ื•ื‘ื”โ€, but itโ€™s still not the same as men who are really obligated). And the most important ืžืฆื•ื” is ืœื™ืžื•ื“ ื”ืชื•ืจื”, and women arenโ€™t obligated in ืชืœืžื•ื“ ืชื•ืจื”, only in learning what they need. So women donโ€™t have the same dedication to learning ืชื•ืจื”. (ื ืฉื™ื ื‘ืžื” ื–ื›ื™ื™ืŸ is not a ื—ื™ื•ื‘ either, itโ€™s a merit and reward).
In nature, the man is like the sun.
The sun is the origin of energy, of heat, of light. The man generates greatness. Whether itโ€™s ืชื•ืจื” or mitzvos or whether heโ€™s out in the world building the factories and earning the money, generally the building of the world is supposed to be the role of the men.
The woman: By creation the woman is like the moon.
โ€œืœื™ืช ืœื” ืžื™ื’ืจืžื™ ื›ืœื•ืโ€(ืœ' ืงื‘ืœื”) - has nothing on its own, sheโ€™s like a mirror.
The nature of the woman is to connect, thatโ€™s her talent.
A man has a mitzva to get married. A woman has to get married by nature. To connect- otherwise sheโ€™s nothing. (Rav Pinkus vs. Rav Tauber difference in opinion).
The essence of a woman is to connect and reflect. Nature tells her this, you donโ€™t need to make a mitzva out if it. Thatโ€™s her essence.
The ื™ืจื— (woman) said:
Q. Why do I need to reflect the sun? If I have a talent to reflect, if Iโ€™m a mirror, then I can reflect ื”'. And if I can reflect ื”' then I can be bigger than the sun. Because the sun has no talent to reflect - just to generate. I can reflect, so I want to reflect ื”'. And if I reflect ื”' Iโ€™ll be greater than the sun.
This can come from jealousy or from purity of wanting ืงืจื‘ืช ื”'.
So ื”' tested the moon.
And it was revealed that all she wants was pure ืงืจื‘ืช ื”'.
ื ืžืฉืœ: A woman by nature does not have the ืชื•ืจื” the man has, the ืžืฆื•ื•ืช the man has, all the energies the man has!
ื”' gave her the talent to reflect.
By nature, sheโ€™s supposed to reflect her husband (the sun). It creates the spark and completion of the home system; she gets the home to run and โ€œworkโ€.
(Think of a ืคืกื— without a wife, a ืกื•ื›ื•ืช, a ืฉื‘ื•ืขื•ืช, never mind having childrenโ€ฆ)
Thereโ€™s nothing passive about her, she is the ืขืงืจืช ื”ื‘ื™ืช and by connecting to her husband, her connection creates the completion of the ื‘ื™ืช ื ืืžืŸ' system' and gets it to work.
She depends and connects to her husband, but when a woman has the talent to connect and reflect, she can CHOOSE to connect and reflect Hashem. Whatever she connects to, thatโ€™s who she becomes, and that is entirely in her ื‘ื—ื™ืจื”. When she chooses to connect to her husband AND to ื”' thatโ€™s the ideal, to connect to him ืข"ืค ืชื•ืจื”, ื‘ืงื“ื•ืฉื” ื•ื˜ื”ืจื”.
And the Torah says about such a woman โ€œืืฉืช ื—ื™ืœ ืขื˜ืจืช ื‘ืขืœื”โ€.
Such a great woman is a crown to her husband.
A crown means an origin (ืฉืจืฉ) and is above her husband - Thereโ€™s only one crown.
Theyโ€™re one entity, but sheโ€™s the crown.
This is the answer to the moon: The moon wanted to reflect ื”', that can only happen by โ€œืžื™ืขื•ื˜ ืืช ืขืฆืžื•โ€ - making yourself small. Because if you generate, you canโ€™t reflect. To become BIG, you need to become SMALL - to be able to attach to Hashem. (ื•ื™ืขืงื‘ ื”ื•ื ื”ืงื˜ืŸ).
The reason ื”' created the woman in the way of โ€œืœื™ืช ืœื” ืžื’ืจืžื™ ื›ืœื•ืโ€ - like a mirror, with a ื›ื— to reflect is because she has the obligation in life and in her home to connect and to create the connection to ื”'! Whatever she decides to connect to, whatever she programs herself towards โ€“ thatโ€™s what she becomes. That becomes her. Thatโ€™s why she has to be careful what sheโ€™s exposing herself to (movies terrible for women) because that becomes her essence.
Q. Whatโ€™s more beautiful a mirror or a picture of the ื—ืคืฅ ื—ื™ื™ื?
A. It really depends on what the mirror is reflecting. If the mirror is reflecting that beautiful picture, itโ€™s literally the same beauty. Thatโ€™s what the mirror is now. But if itโ€™s reflecting a dog (movies, magazines) then of course the picture of the ื—ืคืฅ ื—ื™ื™ื is much greater. But if whatโ€™s in front of the mirror is a picture of ื™ื”ื•ืฉืข ื‘ืŸ ื ื•ืŸ , then the mirror is now reflecting that and is now greater than the picture of the ื—ืคืฅ ื—ื™ื™ื because at the end of the day ื™ื”ื•ืฉืข ื‘ืŸ ื ื•ืŸ was greater than even the ื—ืคืฅ ื—ื™ื™ื. (Rav Pincus says this),
Because she has the ื›ื— and talent to connect and reflect, that becomes who she is โ€“ whatever she connects to, thatโ€™s what she reflects and thatโ€™s what she becomes!
Her ืขื‘ื•ื“ื”, her role is to connect to her husband while always having the basic connection to Hashem as well, just like the moon.
This is how ื”' wants it and this is how ื”' designed a ื‘ื™ืช ื‘ื™ืฉืจืืœ.
Q. So how does she become ืขื˜ืจืช ื‘ืขืœื”? How does she connect to Hashem?
A. Sheโ€™s in charge of the three foundations of the home. ื—ืœื” -physical, ื ืจ (candles) -emotional, ืขื ืŸ (cloud)-spiritual. And with her mind she programs herself to connect to ื”' with her entire being and her entire life. She does physical things but elevates it all with her ืžื—ืฉื‘ื” (thought) to be ืœืฉื ืฉืžื™ื. Just like the ื›ื”ืŸ ื’ื“ื•ืœ who did ืขื‘ื•ื“ื” which looked physical, in the ื‘ื™ืช ื”ืžืงื“ืฉ and it was all ืžืฆื•ื•ืช , and all for ื”'.

A womanโ€™s role is all spiritual. Even cooking and baking - food is life and life is ืจื•ื—ื ื™ื•ืช - โ€œื–ื” ื”ืฉื•ืœื—ืŸ ืฉืœืคื ื™ ื”'โ€- pure spiritual. Itโ€™s all in her ืžื—ืฉื‘ื”, if she does all her ื’ืฉืžื™ื•ืช (physical things) for ื”' (spirituality), all her life is pure ืจื•ื—ื ื™ื•ืช, and sheโ€™s connected to Hashem her entire life, even more than her husband. (ื‘ื™ื˜ื•ืœ ืชื•ืจื” is nearly impossible not to transgress).
She can program herself to have a constant connection to ื”'.
Thatโ€™s how she becomes ืขื˜ืจืช ื‘ืขืœื”, the crown, his pride and glory.
(A man has many ืžืฆื•ื•ืช that a woman doesnโ€™t, she doesnโ€™t need those to connect to ื”', sheโ€™s connected by default as long as she turns towards ื”' and programs herself that way. She was created with the talent to connect wirelessly, with the automatic ability to connect and be one with ื”'. No wires necessary. Itโ€™s a higher level. Thatโ€™s why she says โ€œืฉืขืฉื ื™ ื›ืจืฆื•ื ื•โ€ in davening. He thanks ื”' for his โ€œwiresโ€ โ€“ his ืžืฆื•ื•ืช so he says โ€œืฉืœื ืขืฉื ื™ ืืฉื”โ€ because the mitzvos are eternally precious and he got so many, much more than her. The mitzva of learning is especially tremendous, so heโ€™s very grateful. She has another role, she was created closer to the way ื”' wants man to be, with constant connection and reflection of Hashem, all she needs to do is decide to turn to Hashem (stay away from ื˜ื•ืžืื” and filth) and be ืžื›ื•ื•ืŸ ืืช ื”ืœื‘ to ื”' and then sheโ€™s all ืจื•ื—ื ื™ื•ืช).
Q. Is she supposed to connect to ื”' or connect to her family?
A. When youโ€™re connected to the family, youโ€™re connected to ื”'. ื”' wants โ€œื•ื”ื™ื• ืœื‘ืฉืจ ืื—ื“โ€ ื”' wants her to become one with her husband and achieve greatness together.
If a man and wife are connected ื‘ืงื“ื•ืฉื”, ื”' connects them. If itโ€™s not with ืชื•ืจื”, not with ืงื“ื•ืฉื”- then the ื™ืฆืจ ื”ืจืข connects them.
In a Jewish home the connection to the husband is by definition the connection to Hashem. And sheโ€™s the one who has this talent in how to make it happen. Thatโ€™s why it says โ€œื—ื›ืžืช ื ืฉื™ื ื‘ื ืชื” ื‘ื™ืชื”โ€. She uses her wisdom to always angle their home in the right direction, towards the ืฉื›ื™ื ื”.
His primary role is to learn. (or support ืชื•ืจื” if he canโ€™t learn it himself). Thatโ€™s his "ื•ื‘ืชื•ืจืชื• ื™ื”ื’ื” ื™ื•ืžื ื•ืœื™ืœื”โ€.
She also got a parallel โ€œื•ื‘ื”ื ื ื”ื’ื” ื™ื•ืžื ื•ืœื™ืœื”โ€ in raising the children and being the interior designer of her home, as well as ืชืคื™ืœื”. (She can daven all day, from her heart , doesnโ€™t need to be formal davening from a ืกื™ื“ื•ืจ).
Obviously, she can still work, and do all types of other stuff, (so can a man who is unable to learn Torah) but generally, this is her PRIMARY role. The above is their primary obligations and primary roles.
This is how sheโ€™s an ืขื–ืจ ื›ื ื’ื“ื• (ื›ื ื’ื“ื• - Mirror) and this is how she achieves a beautiful home in ืขื•ืœื ื”ื–ื” while earning their beautiful ื—ืœืง together in ืขื•ืœื ื”ื‘ื. She connects to her husband in a way that she knows also brings in the ืฉื›ื™ื ื”.
ืขื–ืจ ื›ื ื’ื“ื• is in two ways:
1. She stands opposite him and attaches and reflects. This is when sheโ€™s comfortable. ืืฉื” ื›ืฉืจื” ืขื•ืฉื” ืจืฆื•ืŸ ื‘ืขืœื”.
2. When sheโ€™s not comfortable with something, she says this does not sit well, wait, slow down, letโ€™s figure this out, letโ€™s ask a ืจื‘ etc. She may look like sheโ€™s going ื›ื ื’ื“ื•, against him โ€“ but really, itโ€™s a ืขื–ืจ for him also.
This is how ื”' wants a Jewish marriage to work. Thatโ€™s why ื”' designed him like the sun and her like the moon in the marriage relationship.
In reality all their accomplishments are shared. Children as well as learning, and any other ืžืฆื•ื•ืช and accomplishments that they are ื–ื•ื›ื” to do. The reward is all shared, as long as theyโ€™re marriage partners. This is just the division of the roles.
As we know the story with ืจื‘ื™ ื—ื ื™ื ื ื‘ืŸ ื“ื•ืกื, that a golden table leg came down to help them with their ืคืจื ืกื” and they asked that it should be taken back because they saw that THEIR table in ืฉืžื™ื was missing a leg. He was the one who learned the ืชื•ืจื”, she โ€˜justโ€™ connected to him and to ื”'. It did not include as many ืžืฆื•ื•ืช as him and she definitely didnโ€™t learn as much as him. She baked the challah etc., but they were one unit, and forever they share the SAME table.
Side note: Women can be in generating positions too. Professionals, teachers and principals CEOโ€™s, bosses, and have all types of generating positions in life. The Torah allows that as long is its within the confines of halacha. They donโ€™t have to only be home. But her primary role in the marriage relationship is being the ืขืงืจืช ื”ื‘ื™ืช, the ืืฉื” ื™ืจืืช ื”', thatโ€™s how she becomes ืืฉืช ื—ื™ืœ ืขื˜ืจืช ื‘ืขืœื”, itโ€™s important to remember that and then she can accomplish this while working as well. Itโ€™s all in the mind. This is the recipe for a ื‘ื™ืช ื ืืžืŸ, this is how the system is meant to work. Theyโ€™re one unit, he generates, she connects to him and to ื”'. With this type of connection, she becomes his pride and glory, his crown.
Examples of times when our ืืžื”ื•ืช and ื ืฉื™ื ืฆื“ืงื ื™ื•ืช listened to their inner voice while connected to their great husbands and reflecting ื”':
ืฉืจื” ืืžื™ื ื• with ื™ืฉืžืขืืœ, ืจื‘ืงื” ืืžื™ื ื• with ืขืฉื• getting the ื‘ืจื›ื•ืช, ืจื—ืœ and ืœืื” with the ืกื™ืžื ื™ื, the wife of ืื•ืŸ ื‘ืŸ ืคืœืช, ืืกืชืจ ื”ืžืœื›ื” with ืœืš ื›ื ื•ืก, and of course other great women in our history.
Throughout history, great women connected to ื”' and trusted their own inner voice as well even while being connected to their husbands. They received from their husband, but they were not passive and didnโ€™t dissolve themselves and their inner voice. When a husband and wife connect, together with ื”' connecting them, thatโ€™s how they become one holy unit. Thatโ€™s how they achieve greatness. And itโ€™s up to the woman to connect while ensuring that sheโ€™s connected to ื”' as well.
Women got ื‘ื™ื ื” ื™ืชืจื” to know how to do this in a way of ืฉืœื•ื and peace as it says โ€œื™ื”ื™ ืฉืœื•ื ื‘ื—ื™ืœืš ืฉืœื•ื” ื‘ืืจืžื ื•ืชื™ืšโ€ โ€“ may there be peace in your ื—ื™ืœ (ื—ื™ืœ can mean valour, as ืืฉืช ื—ื™ืœ) and tranquility in your palaces. And as it further says and we recite each week when welcoming the ืฉื‘ืช ื”ืžืœื›ื” into our homes โ€œื‘ื•ืื™ ื‘ืฉืœื•ื ืขื˜ืจืช ื‘ืขืœื”โ€ โ€“ come with peace, bโ€™darchai shalom.
This is the role of an ืืฉื” ื‘ื™ืฉืจืืœ.
The above is actually also the description of the connection between ื›ืœืœ ื™ืฉืจืืœ (moon) and the ืื•ืžื•ืช ื”ืขื•ืœื (sun). Our job as Jews is to connect to ื”' in His world and thus bring His ืฉื›ื™ื ื” into it. Itโ€™s a topic for another article but the idea is the same and ื”ื’ืจ"ืฉ ืคื™ื ืงื•ืก ื–ืฆ"ืœ does mention it here in short, itโ€™s a role that all Jews have in ื”'โ€™s world, as a ื™ืฉืจืืœ, the ื ื–ืจ ื”ื‘ืจื™ืื”!
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Aylat




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 12 2020, 4:19 pm
Double post

Last edited by Aylat on Tue, May 12 2020, 4:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Aylat




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 12 2020, 4:20 pm
Ginger wrote:
Womanโ€™s Obligations:
To understand it we need some background of the woman and her role.
Background:
When 'ื” created the world, in the heights of the heavens there were "ืฉื ื™ ืžืื•ืจื•ืช ื”ื’ื“ื•ืœื™ื" - the sun and the moon.
We know that the sun and the moon are a mashal to the man and the woman.
Theyโ€™re like a mother and father to the world and bring lots of blessing to the world. (Rav Pincus). The ื’ืžืจื says:
Thereโ€™s a contradiction. The ืคืกื•ืง starts by telling us ืืช ืฉื ื™ ื”ืžืื•ืจื•ืช ื”ื’ื“ื•ืœื™ื (the two big luminaries) and then it says ืืช ื”ืžืื•ืจ ื”ื’ื“ื•ืœ ืœืžืžืฉืœืช ื‘ื™ื•ื ื•ืืช ื”ืžืื•ืจ ื”ืงื˜ืŸ ืœืžืžืฉืœืช ื‘ืœื™ืœื”. (The big one to rule by day, the small one to rule at night).
Q. Why?
ืื™ืŸ ืฉื ื™ ืžืœื›ื™ื ืžืฉืžืฉื™ื โ€œ A. At first they were the same size, but the moon complained and said
.)two kings canโ€™t share the same crown( โ€ื‘ื›ืชืจ ืื—ื“
The implication was โ€œI should be bigger than the sunโ€. 'ื” said โ€œืœื›ื™ ื•ืžืขื˜ื™ ืืช ืขืฆืžืš โ€œ - so go make
yourself smaller.
This ื’ืžืจื is pretty famous, almost everyone knows it. But the ื’ืžืจื continues, and this part is much less famous:
The moon was extremely hurt!
She said โ€œI said something correct, why do I deserve to become smaller? .decided to appease the moon ื”' said sheโ€™s right. And ื”'
So 'ื” said โ€œืœื›ืŸ ืืจื‘ื” ืืช ื—ื™ืœืšโ€- Iโ€™ll give you armies of stars! But she wasnโ€™t happy. So 'ื” said: I see youโ€™re still insulted that youโ€™re called ืงื˜ืŸ so realize โ€œืฆื“ื™ืงื™ื ื™ืงืจืื• ื‘ืฉืžืšโ€- big ืฆื“ื™ืงื™ื will ื“ื•ื“ ื”ื•ื โ€œ it says ื“ื•ื“ ื”ืžืœืš and by ,โ€ื™ืขืงื‘ ื‘ื ื• ื”ืงื˜ืŸโ€œ is called ื™ืขืงื‘ ืื‘ื™ื ื• .like you ืงื˜ืŸ be called .But the moon was still not appeased ..โ€ื”ืงื˜ืŸ
โ€ื”ื‘ื™ืื• ืขืœื™ ื›ืคืจื” ืฉืžื™ืขื˜ืชื™ ืืช ื”ื™ืจื—โ€œ said ื”' So then
Which means as follows:
- ื›ืคืจื” which is for ื—ื˜ืืช is a ืงืจื‘ื ื•ืช and one of the ืงืจื‘ื ื•ืช we have special ืจืืฉ ื—ื•ื“ืฉ said on ื”' for atonement. It says 'ื•ืฉืขื™ืจ ืขื–ื™ื ืœื—ื˜ืืช ืœื” - a chatas for 'ื” , a ื›ืคืจื” for 'ื”, so to speak. Because .is to atone for that, kivyachol ืงืจื‘ืŸ said youโ€™re right, I did something wrong and this ื”'
Q. If 'ื” agreed with the moon, why bring a ืงืจื‘ืŸ?? Why not make the moon big again, like it used to be? A ืงืจื‘ืŸ you bring after you fixed things up, so why are we not fixing it and just bringing a ?ืงืจื‘ืŸ ื—ื˜ืืช
A. This fixed it. This appeased the moon.
Because: Originally, they were ืฉื ื™ ืžืื•ืจื•ืช ื”ื’ื“ื•ืœื™ื, two big luminaries. .This does not mean there were two suns. No :ืจื‘ื™ื ื• ื‘ื—ื™ื™
The sun was a ball of fire- a ball of energy.
And the moon was a reflection of that.
But they were facing each other with 100 percent concentration of each other, like a perfect mirror. (later they werenโ€™t).
And just like by a mirror - if you stand in front of it - all of the beauty of the person standing in front of the mirror will reflect in the mirror. Same too with the sun and the moon.
The moon is like a mirror.
In the beginning they were facing each other - just like when you put a flashlight in front of a mirror- you really canโ€™t tell whereโ€™s the flashlight and whereโ€™s the mirror - they both shed light, even though one is the origin of light and one is the reflection of the light. Thatโ€™s how it was.
But thereโ€™s a question:
Q. If this was the case why did the moon complain that she wants to be bigger than the sun? You canโ€™t be bigger than what you reflect!?
This is the big question.
But thatโ€™s exactly what the moon was saying and complaining about.
She said: The sun gets its ื›ื— (energy) from 'ื”, and I only get mine from the sun!
It says โ€œื›ื™ ืขืžืš ืžืงื•ืจ ื—ื™ื™ื ื‘ืื•ืจืš ื ืจืื” ืื•ืจโ€ - the source of light is from 'ื”- the sunโ€™s light is from .s lightโ€™ื”'
And the moon only gets it from the sun because the moon is a reflection of the sun.
!ื”' That was her complaint. I donโ€™t want to get it from the sun, I want to get it straight from
The moon basically asked: To connect to 'ื” straight. Thatโ€™s clear, because you obviously canโ€™t be bigger than what you reflect. So it canโ€™t be that she wanted to be bigger in SIZE than the sun.
Q. Why did she care?
:ื”' A. There can be two reasons why she wanted to get her koach straight from 1. She was jealous.
.ื”' Maybe in reality really she really just wants to feel close to .2
So, everything we said up until now was just to test the moon! When 'ื” said she will get stars, if she was jealous, she would now be happy because now sheโ€™s even better than the sun, she has stars, sheโ€™s more special! But she said no, Iโ€™m not jealous, thatโ€™s not my issue, โ€œI want to be close to 'ื”โ€. And she wasnโ€™t appeased.
So 'ื” tested her again with โ€œืฆื“ื™ืงื™ื ื™ืงืจืื• ื‘ืฉืžืšโ€ - being called ืงื˜ืŸ is actually pretty special- big weโ€™re called like that! But she said no, Iโ€™m not jealous, thatโ€™s not the issue, I want to be ืฆื“ื™ืงื™ื close to 'ื”! And I said something which is correct, I donโ€™t want to ONLY reflect the sun.
.โ€ื”ื‘ื™ืื• ืขืœื™ ื›ืคืจื” ืฉืžื™ืขื˜ืชื™ ืืช ื”ื™ืจื—โ€œ : said ื”' So
Which means: (will explain in short why this appeased her).
The whole issue of ืจืืฉ ื—ื“ืฉ is what actually in practicality appeases the moon.
Because, ืจืืฉ ื—ื“ืฉ is the basis of ALL the ืฉื‘ื•ืขื•ืช ,ืคืกื— ,ืกื•ื›ื•ืช ,ื™ื•ื ื›ื™ืคื•ืจ ,ืจืืฉ ื”ืฉื ื” ,ืžื•ืขื“ื™ื, etc.
The NATURAL phenomenon of ืจืืฉ ื—ื“ืฉ is the ืžื•ืœื“, the birth of the new moon. When the moon is completely facing the sun itโ€™s a full moon, when itโ€™s turned away, itโ€™s half a moon, a quarter moon, three quarters moon etc. ืžื•ืœื“ means the FIRST CONNECTION between the sun and the moon. This is the natural phenomenon of ืจืืฉ ื—ื“ืฉ, in NATURE.
However: According to the ืชื•ืจื”, the ืžื•ืœื“ is still not what ultimately decides ืจืืฉ ื—ื“ืฉ, even though you would think it should.
Because: We have ืชื•ืจื” reasons to change when ืจืืฉ ื—ื“ืฉ is. For example: 1. We donโ€™t want ื™ื•ื ื›ื™ืคื•ืจ to ever fall out on a Sunday or a Friday.
2. We donโ€™t want ื”ื•ืฉืขื ื ืจื‘ื to be on Shabbos. Etc.
!ืจืืฉ ื—ื“ืฉ comes out as above, we push off ืžื•ืœื“ So if the natural
So here we see that the ืžื•ืœื“, the birth of the moon is not depending on the sun but depending on !ื”' ?ืชื•ืจื” And whoโ€™s the decision of .ืชื•ืจื” the decision of
So thatโ€™s why now the moon was happy.
She wanted to be attached to 'ื”, not dependant on the sun, and on ืจืืฉ ื—ื“ืฉ she has what she wants,
.ื”' which is the decision of ืชื•ืจื” is the decision of ืจืืฉ ื—ื“ืฉ .ืžืฉืœ And Itโ€™s a .ื’ืžืจื .


Ginger, the above is very deep. Thank you for this new understanding.
The rest I donโ€™t connect to but I won't debate here since it off-topic for this thread which isn't about gender roles as such.
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amother
Ginger


 

Post Tue, May 12 2020, 5:41 pm
Aylat wrote:
Ginger, the above is very deep. Thank you for this new understanding.
The rest I donโ€™t connect to but I won't debate here since it off-topic for this thread which isn't about gender roles as such.


My pleasure, take the parts you like ๐Ÿ˜Š
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