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Where do I go from here? Heartbroken from DD
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WhatFor




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, May 14 2020, 12:46 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
You make a lot of sense. He isn't usually willing to go to third parties though. I might might have someone he would listen to, so maybe I could try that avenue. I already put the divorce on him by telling him I'm willing to work on the marriage but apparently he is not. He doesn't want to be responsible for such a drastic step, he wants it to be my fault.


I'm sorry, OP, but please ignore most of what that poster wrote. "You don't have to listen, honor, or respect your mother because your mother is not worthy of respect" is not a difference of parenting opinion. It's abuse. From what you presented to us, your DH routinely engages in abusive behavior, both toward you and the children. (Yes, trying to convince small children that their mother is incompetent is abusive and traumatic.)

Please get a lawyer, yes at this stage, so that you know what steps you can take as you explore your options and so you know how to properly document things and protect yourself. If you tell us what area you live in, maybe someone here can recommend someone, or programs that offer legal aid for these situations. That doesn't mean you have to stop making any efforts with your DH and if at any point he indicates he wants to actually change, that's great.

It's just the not wanting to listen to a Rav or guidance is usually a huge red flag that someone does not want to improve. Never mind the fact that he seems to have said so.
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amother




Peach
 

Post  Thu, May 14 2020, 1:28 am
WhatFor wrote:
I'm sorry, OP, but please ignore most of what that poster wrote. "You don't have to listen, honor, or respect your mother because your mother is not worthy of respect" is not a difference of parenting opinion. It's abuse. From what you presented to us, your DH routinely engages in abusive behavior, both toward you and the children. (Yes, trying to convince small children that their mother is incompetent is abusive and traumatic.)

Please get a lawyer, yes at this stage, so that you know what steps you can take as you explore your options and so you know how to properly document things and protect yourself. If you tell us what area you live in, maybe someone here can recommend someone, or programs that offer legal aid for these situations. That doesn't mean you have to stop making any efforts with your DH and if at any point he indicates he wants to actually change, that's great.

It's just the not wanting to listen to a Rav or guidance is usually a huge red flag that someone does not want to improve. Never mind the fact that he seems to have said so.


WhatFor, did you miss the part where OP says she isnt interested in divorce? Or the part that outside of severe parenting issues that divorce doesn't solve, she seems to get along with her dh and doesnt want to leave him? Did you miss the part where OP filled in all the details of how so much yelling and screaming and emotional upheavel happens between her and the kids when the dh is not around? What her husband says to the kids you dont have to listen, is it parental alienation in its truest sense or could also be a result of large dysfunction that can be fixed by getting parenting together going on? Its not like we have loads of context to judge angles here in this thread which cannot encompass the entire picture. Because I can guarantee in this case divorce will cement this pattern. And the kids will become manipulation experts on their parents more than can be imagined, they seem like a smart & quick witted bunch to be honest. The parenting needs aggressive attention as a first resort. If in a few months of effort there is no progress divorce can be revisited as an option. If OP isnt ready to physically split today, putting off efforts that can build toward a better future is negligent and a terrible tragedy. You also don't threaten divorce unless and until you fully mean it and are ready to split up for real. It should never ever be used as a motivational tactic. Besides the man knows her well, he should be able to easily read how serious she is or not about divorcing.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, May 14 2020, 2:18 am
amother [ Peach ] wrote:
WhatFor, did you miss the part where OP says she isnt interested in divorce? Or the part that outside of severe parenting issues that divorce doesn't solve, she seems to get along with her dh and doesnt want to leave him? Did you miss the part where OP filled in all the details of how so much yelling and screaming and emotional upheavel happens between her and the kids when the dh is not around? What her husband says to the kids you dont have to listen, is it parental alienation in its truest sense or could also be a result of large dysfunction that can be fixed by getting parenting together going on? Its not like we have loads of context to judge angles here in this thread which cannot encompass the entire picture. Because I can guarantee in this case divorce will cement this pattern. And the kids will become manipulation experts on their parents more than can be imagined, they seem like a smart & quick witted bunch to be honest. The parenting needs aggressive attention as a first resort. If in a few months of effort there is no progress divorce can be revisited as an option. If OP isnt ready to physically split today, putting off efforts that can build toward a better future is negligent and a terrible tragedy. You also don't threaten divorce unless and until you fully mean it and are ready to split up for real. It should never ever be used as a motivational tactic. Besides the man knows her well, he should be able to easily read how serious she is or not about divorcing.


Peach, did you miss the part where OP writes that DH tells children "Mother is crazy"? Did you miss the part where OP writes that DH tells children that Halachah does not require children to listen to their Mother?

This is One Million Per Cent Parental Alienation which is both Spousal Abuse AND Child Abuse.

I did see the part where OP says she does not want a divorce. But since OP is posting
asking for advice, people are telling her that divorce is her best option. This parental alienation / abuse will never stop.
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WhatFor




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, May 14 2020, 2:20 am
amother [ Peach ] wrote:
WhatFor, did you miss the part where OP says she isnt interested in divorce? Or the part that outside of severe parenting issues that divorce doesn't solve, she seems to get along with her dh and doesnt want to leave him? Did you miss the part where OP filled in all the details of how so much yelling and screaming and emotional upheavel happens between her and the kids when the dh is not around? What her husband says to the kids you dont have to listen, is it parental alienation in its truest sense or could also be a result of large dysfunction that can be fixed by getting parenting together going on?...


No, I didn't miss the part in which the woman who described abusive behavior toward herself and her children expressed hesitance about leaving the relationship. This is common for victims. Did I miss the part about how other than the severe parenting issues (read: abuse)... Wait what? "And other than that Mrs Lincoln, how was the play?" Regardless, I did miss the part where she "seems to get along with her DH". The bulk of her interactions with DH as described include abuse. And in any case, you don't just stay in a relationship with your children's abuser because you "get along". Of course her kids yell at her even when her DH isn't around. He turned them against her, and they're victims acting out.

I'm assuming that everything OP wrote is accurate; I see no value in filling in blanks with baseless hypotheticals. The most telling detail about who's the issue is the fact that DH won't listen to a Rav or seek guidance and OP is running around calling Rabbanim, going to therapy, that's enough for me.

OP is trying and is doing the right thing now anyway. If her DH can change, great. If not, at least she's being assertive now and taking action.
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Ora in town




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, May 14 2020, 4:29 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
The Rav from the Beis Din told me to write up a list of my terms for child support in order to accept the get. Basically, we gave him an ultimatum and he chose giving a get. I really just wanted to shake him up and spook him, but he called my bluff.

Wait a minute.
You wrote that you did not want to divorce.
Here also, you write that divorce is not what you want.
You write that it was a "negotiating tactic", that backfired.
And now, you are going through with it?
What happened?
Did those ladies here convince you that your husband was "abusive" and that you had to divorce?
In just one day?
I can't wrap my head around this...

amother [ OP ] wrote:
He is very motivated by having to spend money, so the Rav said maybe if he sees how much he'll have to spend, he'll back down and agree to change. I'm trying to figure out the amount I should ask for.

I can't believe that the rav gives you this kind of advice.
First, you do not know what your children will choose. It might well be that the children say they want to stay with their father, and then you will be the one who has to pay child support.
Second: this kind of negotiating tactict: you want him to pay a lot of money in case of divorce, so that he will back off... is a complete breech of trust. If I were in your husband's place I could never trust you again if you played those kinds of games with me...
You do not really want to get divorced.
You want to solve a problem surrounding the education of your children.
Now you tell your husband that you want a divorce and that it will cost him x sum of money.
He already said that he will not be blackmailed.
So if you tell him it will cost him x sum of money, he will take you seriously and he will fight you in court, to explain that sum x is not justified... Or he will fight you in court to take the children and have you pay...
What do you need all this for? The attorneys will get rich, your family's situation and your situation will get worse and worse.
And third: you are about to get divorced allthough you don't want, because your teenage daughter is acting out... Isn't this also a heavy responsability to bear for your daughter? Who really has no clue what disturbances she is causing?


Last edited by Ora in town on Thu, May 14 2020, 5:23 am; edited 2 times in total
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Ora in town




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, May 14 2020, 4:36 am
#BestBubby wrote:
Peach, did you miss the part where OP writes that DH tells children "Mother is crazy"? Did you miss the part where OP writes that DH tells children that Halachah does not require children to listen to their Mother?

This is One Million Per Cent Parental Alienation which is both Spousal Abuse AND Child Abuse.

I did see the part where OP says she does not want a divorce. But since OP is posting
asking for advice, people are telling her that divorce is her best option. This parental alienation / abuse will never stop.

I think that the concept of "parental alienation" is used and abused a lot...
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Laiya




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, May 14 2020, 9:26 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I'm just curious why it's so important to get a lawyer at this stage? Like I said, I don't actually want to get divorced.


A lawyer can tell you how to take steps now to protect yourself for the future, as WhatFor said. Even if you don't want a divorce, you don't know if your dh will insist on one, and you don't know if he will fight you for custody or over the financial terms, regardless of whatever he says now.

It's possible a lawyer will tell you that there are steps you can take today that will help strengthen your case for the future, and if it doesn't end up coming to that, no loss.

Meeting a lawyer isn't a commitment to anything, it's just a chance to make yourself more informed and hear helpful advice.
Hatzclocha.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, May 14 2020, 9:42 am
Ora in town wrote:
I think that the concept of "parental alienation" is used and abused a lot...


So you don't think a parent telling the children "Mommy is crazy" is parental alienation?

You don't think a parent telling the children, "You don't have to listen to Mommy" is
parental alienation?
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amother




Smokey
 

Post  Thu, May 14 2020, 11:00 am
#BestBubby wrote:
So you don't think a parent telling the children "Mommy is crazy" is parental alienation?

You don't think a parent telling the children, "You don't have to listen to Mommy" is
parental alienation?


It probably alienation but there is also the possibility that a mother can be abusive to children and then it comes to a situation where the father reacts like that.
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Ora in town




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, May 14 2020, 1:07 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
So you don't think a parent telling the children "Mommy is crazy" is parental alienation?

You don't think a parent telling the children, "You don't have to listen to Mommy" is
parental alienation?

I don't think that the paradigm of "parental alienation" is helpful to solve this case, and, by the way, I don't think it is helpful in most cases.
I mean, if this marriage is really so shattered that the husband would agree to divorce in a minute and the wife too, although it was not her primary intention, you have to ask yourself what holds this marriage together.
So there might be some deep seated problems...
However, I think that it is not constructive to paint the other spouse all in black. In my view, it would be more constructive to find actual solutions to the actual problem.
Here, someone decided to divorce on the drop of a hat, just because she was told it would be a good idea... Really?

Personally, I saw similar situations around me, where the daughter became very assertive, after a long history of being parentified and having to fill the gaps when the mother was not able to function... That's why I would first check out if that's the case here...
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amother




Hotpink
 

Post  Thu, May 14 2020, 1:22 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I'm so broken. I don't know what to do with my 13 YO. She's the oldest and has always been a strong personality, but since corona her clashes with me have gone through the roof. She's become violent, shockingly verbally abusive, and constantly turns the other kids who are old enough to listen to her against me. My preschooler she tries to brainwash by telling him that Mommy doesn't love him and wants to hurt him.

She wants to run the house and can't handle the fact that I'm the actual mother. I am home all day with the kids while DH is out, and any time I tell them what to do she ignores, fights, screams or refuses. It doesn't make a difference whether I'm talking to her or the other kids. She will physically get between me and the other kids, in my face, and scream at me and not let me deal with them.

She's violently attacked me a few times. She is bigger than me, and can be scary. If I try to take away toys or privileges, she gets verbally abusive and/or physical as well. She tells me all day that I'm abusive and crazy. Then when DH comes home she complains to him that Mommy is crazy and didn't let X Y and Z. No matter what I tell him, he takes her side and tells her "yes, Mommy is wrong, but you shouldn't talk back anyway because you're just adding fuel to the fire, you be a tzadeikes even if Mommy is immature, wrong and crazy." He is a total pushover with the kids and they love him because he never, ever tells them what to do or gives them any consequences for bad behavior. And he will tell me in front of them that I am wrong and should not tell them what to do and I'm not allowed to take anything from them.

I've told him time and again that he needs to back me up. He refuses. I've told him if he's out all day, he needs to allow me to direct the kids. They literally answer me back all day "I don't have to listen to you and Abba said so." He has told them according to the Torah, they don't have to listen to their mother, only their father.

I'm so so so fed up. I'm under siege in my own home. I am trying to parent in an impossible situation.

Just some of the delightful gems I heard from this child today: 1. she wants to kill me 2. I should come near the window so she can throw me out 3. I'm a pig (when I took a piece of food on my plate for supper) 4. she's calling the police because I "stole" her camera (which she then faked doing)

I am so at a loss. I never thought I would have to deal with something like this. My kids were always basically good kids, even if they had their moments now and then.


1. I’m so sorry for what you’re going through. She needs professional help and so do you- if she is physically able to carry out to what she threatens, you are in a bad situation.

2. On the emotional front, it sounds like she may have anxiety because she feels more powerful than the adults that as parents should be protecting her and should be “stronger”
Than she is. She is physically able to threaten you and you can do nothing about it. On top of that she also controls your husband by forcing him against you- too much control for a teenager can be terribly scary for her.

Please get help for yourself to know how to deal with her
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seeker




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, May 14 2020, 1:28 pm
I'm being really brazen and out of place here and there is literally no reason for anyone to take my advice but here goes.

There is a lot going on and this thread is going in all different directions. None of those directions are wrong per se, life is complicated and OP's life sounds more complicated than most. But when there's so much going on, it's harder to focus and prioritize. I'm feeling that way just with the "so much going on" consisting of everyone home all day; I can only imagine adding all these bigger problems to the mix.

So I'm going to dare to suggest a priority list:

1. Get a strong professional consultant to advise about the immediate parenting issues. Short term emergency intervention. The being home all day together is an unusual crisis thing. Yes it has brought deeper issues to the fore but let's not lose focus that a lot of people need to find new strategies for gaining some equilibrium. (perhaps start an imamother post for a referral of someone who can help a mother get a grip on an out of control parenting situation with a counterproductive partner)

2. Build up resources in case divorce ends up being a thing. Again, one short term consultation should help line up just a clearer picture of what that scenario could look like.

3. Put that information in a back pocket, and work on strengthening your own internal resources. Even if you do end up separated, it's not going to be immediate, it's not a good idea to make drastic moves in middle of such a mess. Build your core as much as you can while your short term focus is that #1 getting more clarity on the parenting situation. Recognize that staying today is not the same as staying forever, you don't need to make any permanent decisions right now. Try if you can not to escalate the husband situation while you focus on a strategy for the kids.

Again this is just my two cents and you get what you pay for. But it seems to me that one piece of this situation is more urgent than the other. Focusing on the marriage problems is vital in the long term, but focusing on them now could leave the kids falling through the cracks.

Sending hugs and prayers.
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CiCi




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, May 14 2020, 1:35 pm
Ora in town wrote:
I don't think that the paradigm of "parental alienation" is helpful to solve this case, and, by the way, I don't think it is helpful in most cases.
I mean, if this marriage is really so shattered that the husband would agree to divorce in a minute and the wife too, although it was not her primary intention, you have to ask yourself what holds this marriage together.
So there might be some deep seated problems...
However, I think that it is not constructive to paint the other spouse all in black. In my view, it would be more constructive to find actual solutions to the actual problem.
Here, someone decided to divorce on the drop of a hat, just because she was told it would be a good idea... Really?

Personally, I saw similar situations around me, where the daughter became very assertive, after a long history of being parentified and having to fill the gaps when the mother was not able to function... That's why I would first check out if that's the case here...


I agree that there may be more to the story that we don't see. However, the husband said some crazy things to the kids that doesn't make sense under any circumstances.
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seeker




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, May 14 2020, 2:00 pm
I'm also wondering if you can sit together with dh and a (rav or preferably) mediator together, not for the purposes of meditation but just to outline what your options are. Right now it looks like you're playing a chess game with the divorce threats. Why not sit down together with someone who knows how these things work to lay out the choices. Instead of you going to the rav to present dh with a demand that you hope will scare him off, a divorce mediator can sit with you both and tell you both what divorce would involve and what staying would involve. A mediator could also get each of you to give a clearer answer of what you want, meaning whether dh will ever actually engage in staying married.

Just a thought.
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amother




Peach
 

Post  Thu, May 14 2020, 6:53 pm
Look, OP has never provided ANY context for the siuations that lead up to her points. She has never laid out any of her own actions.

No matter how crazy her husband sounds without context and without the whole picture, you cannot conclude anything.

Using divorce threats is WRONG. Two wrongs dont make a right. So wrong that it is not even in OP's interests. Its a terrible idea to use divorce as an idle threat.
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