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Where do I go from here? Heartbroken from DD
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amother
Navy


 

Post Mon, May 11 2020, 6:47 am
Op, my heart breaks for you. You said you're under siege in your own house. That's very accurate. You're a victim of abuse, but you can be a survivor and save your kids too. Your daughter is suffering tremendously and has been taught to abuse you. Hurt people hurt people. Imagine her pain and seek help for her sake. Shalom task force is a good place to start. Don't mince words and don't down play what is going on. Read what you posted here if you have to.
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amother
Khaki


 

Post Mon, May 11 2020, 6:49 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I'm so broken. I don't know what to do with my 13 YO. She's the oldest and has always been a strong personality, but since corona her clashes with me have gone through the roof. She's become violent, shockingly verbally abusive, and constantly turns the other kids who are old enough to listen to her against me. My preschooler she tries to brainwash by telling him that Mommy doesn't love him and wants to hurt him.

She wants to run the house and can't handle the fact that I'm the actual mother. I am home all day with the kids while DH is out, and any time I tell them what to do she ignores, fights, screams or refuses. It doesn't make a difference whether I'm talking to her or the other kids. She will physically get between me and the other kids, in my face, and scream at me and not let me deal with them.

She's violently attacked me a few times. She is bigger than me, and can be scary. If I try to take away toys or privileges, she gets verbally abusive and/or physical as well. She tells me all day that I'm abusive and crazy. Then when DH comes home she complains to him that Mommy is crazy and didn't let X Y and Z. No matter what I tell him, he takes her side and tells her "yes, Mommy is wrong, but you shouldn't talk back anyway because you're just adding fuel to the fire, you be a tzadeikes even if Mommy is immature, wrong and crazy." He is a total pushover with the kids and they love him because he never, ever tells them what to do or gives them any consequences for bad behavior. And he will tell me in front of them that I am wrong and should not tell them what to do and I'm not allowed to take anything from them.

I've told him time and again that he needs to back me up. He refuses. I've told him if he's out all day, he needs to allow me to direct the kids. They literally answer me back all day "I don't have to listen to you and Abba said so." He has told them according to the Torah, they don't have to listen to their mother, only their father.

I'm so so so fed up. I'm under siege in my own home. I am trying to parent in an impossible situation.

Just some of the delightful gems I heard from this child today: 1. she wants to kill me 2. I should come near the window so she can throw me out 3. I'm a pig (when I took a piece of food on my plate for supper) 4. she's calling the police because I "stole" her camera (which she then faked doing)

I am so at a loss. I never thought I would have to deal with something like this. My kids were always basically good kids, even if they had their moments now and then.


The Core of the problem is your husband.
And if he’ll call a Rav he’ll find out he’s WRONG.
1. The kids must respect you.
2. So does he.
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#BestBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 11 2020, 6:50 am
OP, In my opinion your DH IS the abuser - he is secretly encouraging DD to attack you and get the other kids to join in. If DH AGREES that you are "crazy" and "immature" HE is the INSTIGATOR! Then he tells DD to stop but wink, wink - continue.

There was another thread by amother titled "My husband went away. It's a huge relief" https://www.imamother.com/foru.....33160 where the DH turned first the oldest against the mother - then the next two joined in. That DH also told the kids to stop (wink wink).

Its your DH. Get a Nanny Cam and RECORD DH telling your kids that YOU are "crazy" and
"immature". Then consult an attorney.

If you don't act fast, your DH will turn ALL your kids against you, as happened to the other imamother.


Last edited by #BestBubby on Mon, May 11 2020, 7:00 am; edited 1 time in total
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Zehava




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 11 2020, 6:52 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I can't really let it go unless I want the home descending into utter chaos either way. We're talking about things like 9 year old jumping on top of 3 year old and bullying him, kids never doing their homework unless I prompt them, acting wild and hurting each other, never going to bed and acting wild literally all night long unless I do something about it...things that need to be corrected.

The funny thing is they refuse to listen, taking their cue from 13 YO DD, but then when there's a fight or they don't like something the other one is doing, they're yelling for me right away to stop their sibling.

You’re worrying about homework when your kids are living a dysfunctional and abusive reality. No wonder they’re all acting wild and hurting each other. They’re all crying out for help.
They don’t need correction. They need safety.
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chanchy123




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 11 2020, 6:52 am
CiCi wrote:
He said you are not to be respected because you don't respect others. So here's my question; what does he mean by you not respecting others?

What dis it matter? That’s not something you get to say to your spouse - ever!!!
No matter what she did. Just no. That’s not the way people are supposed to behave in a relationship as a married couple. Maybe she did something awful - he can say he’s very angry with her or hurt by her - not that she’s beyond respect as a person. From her previous posts it seems that he puts her down in often and involves the children making them feel they must indulge their mother’s bad/crazy behavior. That is just not how it works. Even if the spouse IS crossing the line and IS crazy.
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amother
Khaki


 

Post Mon, May 11 2020, 6:54 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I am so done. He just told me that according to halacha, there is no obligation to respect me because it says איזהו מכובד המכבד את הבראיות and according to him I'm not respectable. I tell he we should ask a Rav and he just laughs, says "come on, please" and "it's not about halacha, it's about an agenda."


איזהו מכובד המכבד את הבריות
.Refers to regular people in the street.
That those who are respectful are respected.
But a man has to respect his wife. He literally promised that in the kesuba.
And a child must respect his mother, it’s literally a mitzvas ase דאורייתא.
I’m glad he cares what the Torah says, but he just doesn’t know what it says.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 11 2020, 6:56 am
It's hard to know what's really going on here because we only see OP's perspective, not her DH's. However, what definitely seems to be the case is children who are reacting to a marriage that needs help desperately.

I also agree that it's never beneficial to children to be told by one parent to disrespect the other parent. Even in cases of abuse. I speak as someone involved with kids who live in a very difficult home. Encouraging respectful speech and behavior benefits children, chaos does not, even to difficult people. So whatever the case here, the husband is totally out of line with that.
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naomi2




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 11 2020, 7:05 am
Op said she has a therapist. I'm not sure why she is coming to imamother to present her side and garner sympathy.
What is clear is that this family needs help in all their relationships and being home all day is exacerbating the issues.
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amother
Orchid


 

Post Mon, May 11 2020, 7:07 am
amother [ Wheat ] wrote:
Did DH witness the attack? Because if not then it is super common not to believe that something like that happened and to just brush it off due to denial.

He DOES need serious lectures from a respected rav who will explain the facts of life to him. But in all honesty a lot of bochurim pick up these stupid attitudes in yeshiva.

If you think this behavior can be excused by 'stupid attitude picked up in yeshiva' I'm afraid there's something wrong with either the yeshivos you know or the guys you know.
This statement doesn't make a drop of sense.
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CiCi




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 11 2020, 7:18 am
chanchy123 wrote:
What dis it matter? That’s not something you get to say to your spouse - ever!!!
No matter what she did. Just no. That’s not the way people are supposed to behave in a relationship as a married couple. Maybe she did something awful - he can say he’s very angry with her or hurt by her - not that she’s beyond respect as a person. From her previous posts it seems that he puts her down in often and involves the children making them feel they must indulge their mother’s bad/crazy behavior. That is just not how it works. Even if the spouse IS crossing the line and IS crazy.


Whether it's right or wrong, it could be reactive as opposed to abusive. I wouldn't jump to conclusions so quickly that the source of the problem is ONLY the husband. Certainly he has issues too...I agree with the poster above about a hidden camera but I would record 2-3 entire days to get to see both sides of the equation and then take it to a Rav or someone an expert in sholom bayis issues to analyze who and what is the source of problem here. They both may be...or the OP may be entirely innocent...

The husband may be saying that she is not being mechabed others because of two things
1. Either he is frustrated with her behavior or
2. He is abusive and gaslighting her

I remember another thread where the OP went on about how chitzpadig her daughter is and that her husband is instigating this behavior. So I asked the OP if there could be a reason why is her husband is saying that she is the one causing the fights with her daughter and she never came back on the thread...Now obviously, the husband is not handling the situation right. And it could very well be that he is a total abuser. But first it's important to establish whether the OP is a complete victim. It doesn't have to be established for us, but for the OP herself and to those who will be reached out for help as this situation is clearly spiraling out of control.
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amother
Wheat


 

Post Mon, May 11 2020, 7:24 am
amother [ Orchid ] wrote:
If you think this behavior can be excused by 'stupid attitude picked up in yeshiva' I'm afraid there's something wrong with either the yeshivos you know or the guys you know.
This statement doesn't make a drop of sense.

DH has met a lot of yeshiva guys who have this attitude, in greater or lesser quantities. I know a yeshiva dean who complains about this attitude in some of the bochurim.

It's not news. It's not new. It has been around for decades and BH it doesn't affect everyone (and those affected it usually isn't to this degree) but it definitely is an issue that needs to be dealt with because even five guys affected at all in every class in every yeshiva are way too many.
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banana123




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 11 2020, 7:25 am
CiCi wrote:
Whether it's right or wrong, it could be reactive as opposed to abusive. I wouldn't jump to conclusions so quickly that the source of the problem is ONLY the husband. Certainly he has issues too...I agree with the poster above about a hidden camera but I would record 2-3 entire days to get to see both sides of the equation and then take it to a Rav or someone an expert in sholom bayis issues to analyze who and what is the source of problem here. They both may be...or the OP may be entirely innocent...

The husband may be saying that she is not being mechabed others because of two things
1. Either he is frustrated with her behavior or
2. He is abusive and gaslighting her

I remember another thread where the OP went on about how chitzpadig her daughter is and that her husband is instigating this behavior. So I asked the OP if there could be a reason why is her husband is saying that she is the one causing the fights with her daughter and she never came back on the thread...Now obviously, the husband is not handling the situation right. And it could very well be that he is a total abuser. But first it's important to establish whether the OP is a complete victim. It doesn't have to be established for us, but for the OP herself and to those who will be reached out for help as this situation is clearly spiraling out of control.

I remember that thread too. At first I thought OP was that poster.
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amother
Firebrick


 

Post Mon, May 11 2020, 7:26 am
Ora in town wrote:
UFF!
That sounds really hard.
As opposed to many commentators here, I do not think that your husband is the source of all the problems.
But I agree that it is hard to understand the dynamics at play, because you do not really describe your role in all of this.

Does your daughter have the impression that many responsabilities get dumped on her? Are you sometimes tired or ill and then she just jumps in and does what has to be done? Is she parentified?

In general, what you describe is quite widespread in teenagers: that they challenge their parents, especially their mothers and try to show them that they are stronger than her.

I suppose that it is really in some way a cry for attention and help...

On the other hand, it is also a cry of insecurity, where they want to find someone strong, who can reassure them at the other end...

I.e. she is waiting for you to reassure her that you and your husband are responsable for the family, that she is not the parent of her siblings, that she does not have to change their nappies or whatever... If she has a long history of changing nappies, this might be a bit difficult... Also if she is the type of "perfect housewife" and you are more "let it go", it might also be difficult to reassure her that you are on top of things, that everything will work out also without her contribution, that she does not have to take on adult responsibilities in this household...

So really I think that the solution could be to give her more free time, to go out with friends... which of course is not possible now with Corona... so this might be the reason why it escalates now.

As far as your husband is concerned - I do not view his answers so negatively. He tells her to respect her mother even if she thinks that her mother deserves no respect... that's fair enough... He understands that it is not worth while discussing with a revolting teenager about facts... He is right...


As a current mother of 3 teenagers, I would like to emphatically say that there is nothing remotely normal in what OP describes.
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mommy3b2c




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 11 2020, 7:28 am
CiCi wrote:
He said you are not to be respected because you don't respect others. So here's my question; what does he mean by you not respecting others?


He means nothing. He’s a vicious, evil, abusive man. Please don’t insinuate that this is in anyway her fault. She needs support, not more people making her doubt her sanity.
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leah233




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 11 2020, 7:30 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:


I've told him time and again that he needs to back me up. He refuses. I've told him if he's out all day, he needs to allow me to direct the kids. They literally answer me back all day "I don't have to listen to you and Abba said so." He has told them according to the Torah, they don't have to listen to their mother, only their father.



Did you actually hear your husband say those things yourself or is it your children who are claiming he said them?

I have no idea what is going on but before jumping on the abuse wagon it seems to me like there is a decent possibility that he isn't interested in getting abused himself and doesn't feel that he can control the situation anyway so he is being manipulated into telling the children "You be a tzadeikis and listen to Mommy" They are hearing what they want to hear and saying what they want to say.

The same way she said she would call the police and falsely claim you stole her camera.
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CiCi




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 11 2020, 7:31 am
amother [ Firebrick ] wrote:
As a current mother of 3 teenagers, I would like to emphatically say that there is nothing remotely normal in what OP describes.


Totally agree.
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chanchy123




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 11 2020, 7:31 am
CiCi wrote:
Whether it's right or wrong, it could be reactive as opposed to abusive. I wouldn't jump to conclusions so quickly that the source of the problem is ONLY the husband. Certainly he has issues too...I agree with the poster above about a hidden camera but I would record 2-3 entire days to get to see both sides of the equation and then take it to a Rav or someone an expert in sholom bayis issues to analyze who and what is the source of problem here. They both may be...or the OP may be entirely innocent...

The husband may be saying that she is not being mechabed others because of two things
1. Either he is frustrated with her behavior or
2. He is abusive and gaslighting her

I remember another thread where the OP went on about how chitzpadig her daughter is and that her husband is instigating this behavior. So I asked the OP if there could be a reason why is her husband is saying that she is the one causing the fights with her daughter and she never came back on the thread...Now obviously, the husband is not handling the situation right. And it could very well be that he is a total abuser. But first it's important to establish whether the OP is a complete victim. It doesn't have to be established for us, but for the OP herself and to those who will be reached out for help as this situation is clearly spiraling out of control.

I never said the DH is the only problem. This family has serious issues, however the statements made by the husband are completely out of line OP needs to hear that she deserves respect even if she is flawed.
I saw you suggested hiding cameras or recording on another thread (can’t remember which). To me that give the hibijibis. We don’t know the whole story here, OP may be abusive as well, who knows, but her DH certainly is not dealing with situation and is making things worse. Even if mom is “crazy” you don’t tell your 13 in front of mom she’s a tzadekes for dealing with the craziness. You sit with a therapist and deal with living with a mentally ill parent. It’s just such an off thing to say.
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#BestBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 11 2020, 7:34 am
OP, here is a link for a recording device from ebay for only $17 https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mini-.....33b4c

Important: Get a FRIEND or RELATIVE to order for you - don't use an account yr DH can see.

There is a loop where you can attach a safety pin - I pin it near the top of my outfit - covered by
the top I wear over a shell.

Record your DDs abuse but even more important - get recordings of your DH saying that YOU are "wrong" "crazy". Try to get recordings of kids saying that "Abba says we don't have to listen to you" by telling the Kids that the Torah says you have to listen to a Mother.

DH is a Parental Alienator. I almost never recommend divorce but in this case I am urging you to do this before DH has the kids turned against you - in which case HE will get custody.

Get the evidence, consult Sholom Task Force and attorney specializing in helping abused women win custody. Maybe if you have evidence against him, DH won't instigate a custody fight.

Try to contact the OP on the other thread - she says she has people helping her.
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amother
Peach


 

Post Mon, May 11 2020, 7:34 am
I do not think OP has shared the whole picture. I cant fathom "Yossi, come sheifalah, Mommy has lunch ready, its time to eat" being followed by 13yo dd pulling anything OP has described.

OP hasnt described any details of her part in this disaster. We have not enough information to disect anything more than this chaos is part of a wider major dysfunction. Even the dh disasterous quotes taken out of context can change the equation when filled in with more information. It wont be ok, or healthy or functional but it really needs more context.

Dd sounds very reactive. There is more going on than described, its not everything. You cant sum up an entire life of a family in one or two paragraphs usually. Op, even though you cant get physical space much, I recommend you disengage to create space for the day. Take a self care day, do minimal interaction as absolutely needed today. Take some me time. Get some alone time.
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CiCi




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 11 2020, 7:35 am
chanchy123 wrote:
I never said the DH is the only problem. This family has serious issues, however the statements made by the husband are completely out of line OP needs to hear that she deserves respect even if she is flawed.
I saw you suggested hiding cameras or recording on another thread (can’t remember which). To me that give the hibijibis. We don’t know the whole story here, OP may be abusive as well, who knows, but her DH certainly is not dealing with situation and is making things worse. Even if mom is “crazy” you don’t tell your 13 in front of mom she’s a tzadekes for dealing with the craziness. You sit with a therapist and deal with living with a mentally ill parent. It’s just such an off thing to say.


That's what I'm trying to say. The husband may be reactive, it's not the right way to deal with this situation, but it doesn't automatically make him the only source of the problem.

The fact that he said that one who is respected is one who respects others is a big clue for me that it may not only be an issue with the husband here. And I stress the word "MAY". I do not believe we have a picture of the full story here.


Last edited by CiCi on Mon, May 11 2020, 7:39 am; edited 1 time in total
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