What to do with my 2 1/2 yr old who WAS toilet trained

amother

Sat, Feb 02 2008, 1:18 pm

My son was trained when he was 2 yrs and 2 months old. He was fully trained for a good 2 months, keeping his underpants dry. Then slowly he started pishing a drop before he got to the potty... Ok I could deal with that. Then he started doing more than a drop... Now (he is 2 1/2) he always makes it for #2 but often makes a lot of pish before the potty. He also makes often. Today we went out for a walk and took him to the potty just before the walk. We got home from the walk (almost 1 hr later) and he was soaked through 3 layers of clothing. He doesnt really seem to care either. There should be no reason for a regression either. Some ppl may say he is young, but for a good few wks he was able to stay fully dry. I have tried negative reinforcement, I have tried positive reinforcement... doesnt work. Lots of times the positive turns into negative too... Lets say I say if he keeps dry till the end of the day, he will get a chocolate, so after each time he goes he will throw a fit that he isnt going to get a chocolate. Over shabbat he went through all his underpants (probably about 10 pairs) and now he is in a diaper because I have nothing to put him in. This happened once before and he threw a fit, but now already he doesnt care. He even tells me he is pishing in his diaper. He is a tough kiddo to begin with and likes throwing tantrums etc over everything. If he can pick a fight he will be the 1st one there. So I have to ignore that attitude (REALLY tough) and try to take it from a positive side etc.
I am going crazy! Any suggestions????

Tamiri

Sat, Feb 02 2008, 1:35 pm

Well, you can't send him back (re: what to do with him) - joke - so you will have to deal with the cards you have.
I would TOTALLY keep him diapers until he is ready to try again, when the weather is warmer. No reason to kill yourself or butt heads with a headstrong child. He'll win every time. He is showing you that he can do what he wants, and your job is to no lose your cool.
Also, I do not agree with rewards for the toilet. He can either do what he has to, or he can't. In the real world, we don't get rewarded for doing what we have to. If you keep rewarding a "headstrong" child, they will just up the ante every time and throw a fit if they don't get their way. I know, I had one of these and now he's a fine young man of 22 + but we went thru HE** with him for a while.
I recommend John Rosemond, who gives good conservative parenting advice. Try and get his books.

amother

Sat, Feb 02 2008, 2:48 pm

One more thing I have to add... there is no question he gets more attention than his siblings, just bc of the type of personality he has. But we think he is very jealous of his younger siblings... dont know if it's suddenly or if it is coming out suddenly. Over the last 2 wks or so he has been crawling around the floor, showing me he knows how to stand up, doing the tricks his younger sibling does. Also over the last 5 days or so he has been EXTREMELY kvetchy and temper tantrumy. (But the pishing was way before that). I am wondering if it is connected to the making...?

Tamiri

Sat, Feb 02 2008, 3:44 pm

We never know what is in the mind of a child, but fighting with him will just frustrate you both. He may be trying to get your attention, and he is succeeding - but negatively.
Children use their "eliminations" to punish parents. It's their control mechanism. You can tell your son how proud you are that he doesn't do #2 on the floor, in his diaper etc. Tell him that it's HIS business and he is welcome to call you when he needs you to help him go. Also, give him the choice every morning when he wakes up; do you want a diaper or underpants today. Put the whole thing on him. Tell him that underpants are for children who make in the toilet/potty and that as long as he does that, he can have underwear. If he chooses a diaper, just zip your lips and put one on him HIS choice, so he can't hold anything over you. Don't talk about it at all. Don't fight about it, don't agonize about it. This could go on for a while, but the important thing is to keep calm. He is growing up.
I recently had a "surprise" with my own son. After a few nice months of playgroup (3 times/week for 3 hours with a diff mother each time), he started to be impossible. Would not cooperate, did not want to do what the others do, was nasty to the kids... in short, a nightmare. I went one morning to see for myself (on my day, it's not really a problem) and he really seemed to want no part of playgroup anymore. Nothing strange is going on in his life, making this all the more odd. I called a child psychologist for some help and she gave me some interesting things to think about. I did some "play therapy" with my son, all sorts of thing in which I have some limited experience, and it came out that he was VERY sad for me to be leaving him (this, for a kid with NO separation anxiety who was never left anywhere before this playgroup) and also that he "wants to be first", meaning he is not liking the competition and the having the share and wait. In short, he seemed to be "regressing" but the psych told me it's actually progress, growing realization that he is his own entity and can't always get his way may have him panicking, and reacting in a manner which shows he feels threatened. I am taking care of it by keeping him home most days, until I feel he can attempt playgroup again, I kiss him and hug him all day long, play with him, and never discuss that he is a "disappointment" in dropping out of play group. I hope this will make him stronger.
I am writing this long story to tell you that there is more to our kids than meets the eye and that it's a good idea to take everything calmly. Even if, as in my case, you have a lot of "experience" with children. They constantly surprise us. Bathroom is a first line of defense, and you need to just breath deep and not mind it so much. Maybe talk to someone who can help you.

amother

Sat, Feb 02 2008, 11:59 pm

I cant give him the choice of a diaper or underpants bc as time has proven he will choose the underpants...and wet them! The problem is he can make his own decisions at this age but there is really little, or no reasoning with him yet.
We decided that until maybe tomorrow night we're going to put him in diapers... if he asks to go to the potty, fine. If not, fine. We're not commenting on anything. By then we're going to come up with some system where he gets positive recognition when he goes. He is looking for the negative. He also obviously is jealous of his sibling... so if the only way he will get attention is the positive, maybe he will go for that. We;re doing diapers for 2 days or so to break the negative cycle, and the negative attention kick. (And to get all his wet underpants out of the dryer!:-)
Oh goodness ... if this is how he is now, I think I'm going on vacation when he goes to gan (meaning I dont want to deal with that adjustment!!!)

Tamiri

Sun, Feb 03 2008, 12:06 pm

I know that it doesn't help much for me to say this, but once you look back on this, after many years of parenting and BE'H a number of children, you will KICK yourself for letting this be an issue. Life is truly too short. It doesn't matter if he was or wasn't trained the day he was 2 years, 3 hours and 5 seconds old. It has no bearing on his maturity if he was or wasn't trained then. It has no bearing on your parenting skills. All you need to do is look at your BABY boy now, and see that he is trying to tell you something. Look past the wet and the dirty and try and figure out what he's trying to get across. No baby wants to upset their parents for no reason. They are constantly seeking approval, and get frustrated when they can't get the message across, and so they use age-appropriate methods to get your attention. Your son has succeeded in getting your attention, now try and focus on what he's trying to say.
I'd love to hear if you can figure it out- it's so hard!

6yeladim

Sun, Feb 03 2008, 12:11 pm

My oldest was trained at around 3. Not so long after that, he started peeing in his pants. On purpose. I can't describe how angry and frustrated I was. Finally, I put him back in a diaper and let go of the struggle. I think he was back in underpants in a matter of weeks.

That was the best mothering lesson I EVER got. I don't remember if anyone advised me, but the only way to get him to do what I wanted, was to step back and give him the freedom to do it because HE wanted it. I had to step out of the picture completely. I had to show him that I didn't care whether he made in the toilet or not. And this was very, very hard for an inexperienced mother who also had a toddler and no mother of her own.

And, of my six children, he was the only bedwetter. Coincidence? I think not. (In case it's not clear, I blame the bedwetting on the power struggle, not on its resolution. But who knows.)

Tamiri

Sun, Feb 03 2008, 1:52 pm

Hey, you are lucky! He is not holding it in and constipating himself (sometimes kids use that tactic to get mom burning) and he didn't make on the floor (read Mama Bear's posts). So: you are ahead of the game. Now, if you breathe in deeply and exhale a few times before you speak to him and FORGET that he was ever "toilet trained", your life will be a bowl of marshmallows... until he figures out a new way to get to you. Just view the diapers as the current reality, and say to yourself "I have two babies in diapers, this too shall pass" a few times a day... you will feel great about yourself, and love and compassion towards both sons. Let him work out what is bothering him and get on with life, without extra strife. Kiss him and hug him and keep telling him how fortunate you are to have him in your life.
Good luck!!!!

amother

Sun, Feb 03 2008, 2:30 pm

He didnt make on the floor bc he was wearing a diaper. He pishes through all his layers.
We decided to put him back in underpants and when he wets his clothing just do the "oh... why dont you get new underpants" etc. Not to get worked up but just "oh" type of attitude. Sorry but I cant go through full potty training again. If he COULDNT keep himself dry that is one thing. He 100% can. So why do I have to go back to cleaning poop???

Well I thought it was purely bc of the younger sibling that this is all happening but tonight out of the blue, about 1/2 hr after he wet his pants he said "I can't go to gan now." I guess he connects going to gan with being big, and if he doesnt go to the potty he isnt big... so this is his way of getting out of going to gan when the time comes. Now any ideas about what to do about this???

Tamiri

Sun, Feb 03 2008, 2:38 pm

Is he able to dress and undress himself without any help? If so, then maybe it's the right attitude. If not, it will further frustrate him.
It's good that he talked to you and you listened. You thought it was the sib thing... but perhaps it's not. So, don't talk about the toilet thing, talk about the gan thing. If he doesn't want to go - well it's a good 8 months or so away... no reason to panic about it now, right?
See, he got your attention, he told you what was going on.. now you have to decide what to do with the info. It's hard being a parent. He probably picked up on your reticence of sending him out to gan, he picked up your fear and trepidation and is just going along with mom here....

amother

Sun, Feb 03 2008, 2:52 pm

Tamiri

Sun, Feb 03 2008, 3:01 pm

What is the right attitude?
No, he has trouble getting himself undressed in time for the potty so I help him.
I still do think he is threatened by his sibling. And I know gan will be a hard adjustment for him but I didnt think it would set in yet. What do you mean in terms of if he doesnt want to go, its 8 months away etc?
I personally am not fearful of sending him to gan. I think it will be great for him once he gets adjusted, on so many levels. I've only discussed it in a positive light with him. We've seen it from the outside and he seemed excited....? I myself am enthusiastic about it. I am not looking forward to his adjustment but I think it will be good both for him and me in many ways.

If he has trouble getting dressed and undressed (age appropriate, he should NOT be doing it himself yet) then what do you gain by keeping him in underwear? What do you do if he decides he doesn't mind being wet and maybe even pooping... where do you go from there? OTOH if he's in a diaper, you really have less work and less stress. As long as you are fussing with him for toilet issues, he has the upper hand in this, not a good place for him or for you.
The Gan think setting in can ONLY be as a result of what you said to him and what he read into behind the scenes. I would take him over there as much as possible, show him the ropes, prepare him and see if he settles into the idea. Maybe even sign him up for summer camp so he can get a taste of it in a less threatening environment.
What I meant about the 8 months is that it's a period of time equal to a lifetime in the mind of a young boy/baby. It's so far away that talking about it hypothetically may cause more harm than good. OTOH, showing him other kids there and not applying it directly to HIM may be a good thing. Let the idea sink in. But still - nothing should be revolving around the toilet thing, that should be a taboo subject. And the less attention given to it - the better off you will be. It's only for a short time. Read what 6Yeladim wrote....

amother

Mon, Feb 04 2008, 12:35 am

What do I gain by keeping him in underwear? Bc if he wears diapers he clearly comes to rely on them, while with underpants he doesnt some of the time (and never with #2).

"The Gan think setting in can ONLY be as a result of what you said to him and what he read into behind the scenes. "
Then he would have a very positive view bc I have told him abt all the toys there, how nice the gananot are. I brought him to see the outside several times and told him how the outside equipment is special for the kids in gan. I went to look through the windows with him once. I do plan to go with him soon to see the inside. I was thinking of waiting a few more months though.

Yes, I decided now I better not talk anymore abt gan.
I also decided that now he is wearing underpants, but as I said (and it already happened last night)... I am not reminding him. He makes? "oh"..and I can offer if he wants to get new underpants to do that. That's it.

6yeladim- how did he move back to underpants. HE asked?