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How do you stand wearing tights in hot weather?
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dancingqueen




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, May 17 2020, 10:38 am
gold21 wrote:
I understood that ankle falls into a different category than collarbone, knee, elbow, etc, in that it is allowed to be covered by a non-opaque covering that still allows the shape of it to show (pantyhose), while the others listed above need to be covered differently

And that covering the leg is not required altogether unless it is the minhag hamakom in your area

But, maybe somebody can look it up?

All our tuition dollars, spent with little to show for it.... Very Happy

We need clarity!!! Haha.


I think you’re thinking of the lower leg in general, not specifically the ankle. Because it’s a machloket if it needs to be covered, even those who require covering the calf say tights/stockings are ok. Separately, maybe your teachers didn’t want you to go barefoot eg with sandals? Not sure what the source is for that.
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crust




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, May 17 2020, 10:49 am
behappy2 wrote:
What is your source? There are definitely chassidus's that hold that you need to wear tights from a certain age. Is that incorrect?


Re the bolded; they (including myself) hold that you need to cover the knees from a certain age. It doesn't have to be tights.

Tights is a school rule and a better choice for parents because its more comfortable to wear tights than to wear these long socks that shlump down if you dont have something to attach it to on the top.

The actual tights is not Minhag Hamakom.

I think I've explained myself regarding Minhag Hamakom.
(Please pm me if not. I don't like to get into halacha discussions here.)
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gold21




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, May 17 2020, 11:00 am
dancingqueen wrote:
I think you’re thinking of the lower leg in general, not specifically the ankle. Because it’s a machloket if it needs to be covered, even those who require covering the calf say tights/stockings are ok. Separately, maybe your teachers didn’t want you to go barefoot eg with sandals? Not sure what the source is for that.


I would be interested to find out.
Where are the gemarakups like Seas when you need them? Very Happy
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gold21




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, May 17 2020, 11:02 am
dancingqueen wrote:
I think you’re thinking of the lower leg in general, not specifically the ankle. Because it’s a machloket if it needs to be covered, even those who require covering the calf say tights/stockings are ok. Separately, maybe your teachers didn’t want you to go barefoot eg with sandals? Not sure what the source is for that.


I'll be honest, I'm not the perfect BY product. I don't adhere to the ankle rule so well myself. I just thought it was something I was lax in. I do try to wear short socks with sneakers when I wear a knee length skirt. But sometimes it doesn't happen. I do try.
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giselle




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, May 17 2020, 11:40 am
gold21 wrote:
I'll be honest, I'm not the perfect BY product. I don't adhere to the ankle rule so well myself. I just thought it was something I was lax in. I do try to wear short socks with sneakers when I wear a knee length skirt. But sometimes it doesn't happen. I do try.

To be clear, not wearing socks certainly wasn’t something that was encouraged in the BY system. I was just always under the impression that it was a chumra, definitely not halacha. In fact I have heard from a rav that it’s not Halacha but don’t have a source. I’m just thinking, I remember my mother not wearing socks around the house, and she always dressed according to halacha in the house, but she did wear socks outside of the house.
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CiCi




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, May 17 2020, 11:50 am
Ok, did some research regarding halacha and no tights. Originally I mentioned no tights as I thought the discussion was about bare legs, I did not think of long skirts. Afterwards when people mentioned long skirts and socks, I did more research on the halacha of "no tights"

Those who go according to the ruling of the mishna brirah, the leg from under the knee until the ankle may be uncovered. That means that a skirt MUST be a few inches below the knee to cover the knee and thigh while walking, running or sitting. THIS IS HALACHA ACCORDING TO ALL SHITTAS. Unfortunately, many have taken the halacha of the Mishna Brirah that one can have uncovered from under the knee to the ankles and they use it as ahbetter for baring their leg, from knee to feet. Many are wearing no socks while wearing a straight skirt that pulls up while sitting or walking. Or, people have the indecency even further to wear skirts that don't cover the knees at all.

Also many people who's family never went according to the Mishna Brirah, all of a sudden, in this generation, decided that they don't need to cover their legs with tights.

When I was a kid I remember MOs with their longish, full skirts (3-4" below the knee) and ankle socks. That was then considered modernish wear then. How low we have fallen. Today women wear straight skirts right to the knee that show the knee when walking and the thigh when sitting. With tights it's bad enough and totally ussor, but without tights?!

Women wearing no socks and showing the ankle is against halacha, whether one is wearing leggings or not.
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amother




Lemon
 

Post  Sun, May 17 2020, 12:00 pm
When I was in an oot BY, the official policy was that girls could wear short socks (we had calf length uniform skirts). Our teacher explained that was the psak that Rav Yaakov Kaminetsky had given, because the actual halacha was covering the feet and knees. Not the leg part between.
Now obviously that is separate from minhag hamakom. But if you are talking basic halacha, there are many people who would accept a psak given by R' Yaakov.
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gold21




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, May 17 2020, 12:03 pm
CiCi wrote:
Ok, did some research regarding halacha and no tights. Originally I mentioned no tights as I thought the discussion was about bare legs, I did not think of long skirts. Afterwards when people mentioned long skirts and socks, I did more research on the halacha of "no tights"

Those who go according to the ruling of the mishna brirah, the leg from under the knee until the ankle may be uncovered. That means that a skirt MUST be a few inches below the knee to cover the knee and thigh while walking, running or sitting. THIS IS HALACHA ACCORDING TO ALL SHITTAS. Unfortunately, many have taken the halacha of the Mishna Brirah that one can have uncovered from under the knee to the ankles and they use it as ahbetter for baring their leg, from knee to feet. Many are wearing no socks while wearing a straight skirt that pulls up while sitting or walking. Or, people have the indecency even further to wear skirts that don't cover the knees at all.

Also many people who's family never went according to the Mishna Brirah, all of a sudden, in this generation, decided that they don't need to cover their legs with tights.

When I was a kid I remember MOs with their longish, full skirts (3-4" below the knee) and ankle socks. That was then considered modernish wear then. How low we have fallen. Today women wear straight skirts right to the knee that show the knee when walking and the thigh when sitting. With tights it's bad enough and totally ussor, but without tights?!

Women wearing no socks and showing the ankle is against halacha, whether one is wearing leggings or not.


Yes, that pretty much backs up what I said on this thread. And I have no idea why you're getting into women who flout the rules. That doesn't change the rules. People can flout any rule, but the rule is still the rule.
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gold21




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, May 17 2020, 12:05 pm
giselle wrote:
To be clear, not wearing socks certainly wasn’t something that was encouraged in the BY system. I was just always under the impression that it was a chumra, definitely not halacha. In fact I have heard from a rav that it’s not Halacha but don’t have a source. I’m just thinking, I remember my mother not wearing socks around the house, and she always dressed according to halacha in the house, but she did wear socks outside of the house.


We were taught that we were required to cover our legs, as was the minhag of the place we lived. That's where minhag hamakom comes into play.

I don't live there anymore.
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gold21




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, May 17 2020, 12:05 pm
amother [ Lemon ] wrote:
When I was in an oot BY, the official policy was that girls could wear short socks (we had calf length uniform skirts). Our teacher explained that was the psak that Rav Yaakov Kaminetsky had given, because the actual halacha was covering the feet and knees. Not the leg part between.
Now obviously that is separate from minhag hamakom. But if you are talking basic halacha, there are many people who would accept a psak given by R' Yaakov.


Yes, that definitely makes sense and rings true to me
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CiCi




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, May 17 2020, 12:49 pm
gold21 wrote:
Yes, that pretty much backs up what I said on this thread. And I have no idea why you're getting into women who flout the rules. That doesn't change the rules. People can flout any rule, but the rule is still the rule.


Why I pointed out halacha is because first of all, I said something previously on this thread that was not halachically correct and I wanted to correct that. Secondly, where I live almost no one who does not wear tights wears long skirts with socks, they wear skirts that do not cover the knees while standing, walking or sitting and they don't wear socks. As this is a thread talking about not wearing tights, I feel I should put the halacha out there for those who don't know it.
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amother




Lemon
 

Post  Sun, May 17 2020, 1:06 pm
Cici, I appreciate your honesty.

Out of pure curiosity, I wonder what you would think of me if you saw me dressed on a regular summer day.
Skirt below the knee (by an inch or two) whether standing or sitting (stretchy and loose enough that my knees stay covered while sitting even if not by much) and short socks that come above my ankle.

(Obviously for formal occasions or Shabbos, I will wear hosiery. And, I wear tights in cold weather.)
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gold21




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, May 17 2020, 1:21 pm
CiCi wrote:
Why I pointed out halacha is because first of all, I said something previously on this thread that was not halachically correct and I wanted to correct that. Secondly, where I live almost no one who does not wear tights wears long skirts with socks, they wear skirts that do not cover the knees while standing, walking or sitting and they don't wear socks. As this is a thread talking about not wearing tights, I feel I should put the halacha out there for those who don't know it.


I hear that. Thanks for explaining.

Women who rebel against their community are likely drop halacha along with chumrah, just because the two are often so intertwined in those communities and their differences not clearly delineated. So when one thing is dropped, other things are dropped along with it.

But there are communities where almost nobody wears tights in the summer. Mine, for example. So in those cases, women who skip tights are often feeling very frum about themselves and will be sure to cover their knees and follow halacha. Particularly those who wear long skirts with short socks (as opposed to knee length skirts).

Obviously, this is a gross generalization, but I'll stick with it for purposes of this conversation.
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CiCi




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, May 17 2020, 2:43 pm
amother [ Lemon ] wrote:
Cici, I appreciate your honesty.

Out of pure curiosity, I wonder what you would think of me if you saw me dressed on a regular summer day.
Skirt below the knee (by an inch or two) whether standing or sitting (stretchy and loose enough that my knees stay covered while sitting even if not by much) and short socks that come above my ankle.

(Obviously for formal occasions or Shabbos, I will wear hosiery. And, I wear tights in cold weather.)


Coming from a community where wearing tights is considered to be halacha, and after reading the sefer Oz Ve-hadar Levusha, I assumed the halachas applied across the board for frum women. I never particularly thought into it when I saw women who did not cover their legs but their knees and ankles were covered. If I were to do so, I'd assume that they are not familiar with the halacha of covering their legs.

But disregarding my long-held belief regarding halacha, most of the women I see not wearing tights in the last decade or so, or who have taken off their tights, are wearing short tight skirts with the knees visible and thighs visible when sitting, some even nowadays wearing mini skirts (with their shaitels!) and therefore I did not even question whether wearing tights is permissable or not. Nor wearing tights smelled totally assor to me because of how these women were/are dressed otherwise. It was not the tights itself, but the type of clothing that reeked from licentious. This mode of "dress" is revolting.

Now as I see the Mishna Brirah does ok legs showing as long as the knees and ankles are covered, I would not assume anymore that someone like you does not know halacha. And I can now differentiate between not wearing tights with the leg sufficiently covered per halacha and being dressed like a pritzah.

Anyway, what I or people like me think is irrelevant. Wink Its what Hashem demands of us that's the bottom line!


Last edited by CiCi on Sun, May 17 2020, 4:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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amother




Lemon
 

Post  Sun, May 17 2020, 3:03 pm
Again, I appreciate your honesty and that you are able to differentiate between basic halacha and more stringent ways of interpreting it.

I know the BY I went to has become more RW, and now they do require girls to at least wear knee socks.
However, I still feel comfortable with my mode of dress, since that is what I was taught is halachically acceptable.
(And minhag hamakom doesn't really come into play where I live, because you see all modes of dress, there isn't one overarching type. I probably fall in the middle.)
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CiCi




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, May 17 2020, 3:57 pm
gold21 wrote:
I hear that. Thanks for explaining.

Women who rebel against their community are likely drop halacha along with chumrah, just because the two are often so intertwined in those communities and their differences not clearly delineated. So when one thing is dropped, other things are dropped along with it.

But there are communities where almost nobody wears tights in the summer. Mine, for example. So in those cases, women who skip tights are often feeling very frum about themselves and will be sure to cover their knees and follow halacha. Particularly those who wear long skirts with short socks (as opposed to knee length skirts).

Obviously, this is a gross generalization, but I'll stick with it for purposes of this conversation.


Wearing tights is not a chimrah. The wearing of tights is halacha for those who are bought up in communities where that is the shittah that is followed. For me wearing tights is not a chimrah, it is halacha. I understand that some people have a hard time living in Chassidishe communities or other Chareidi communities and they seek out a different derech. Even if they adopt the shittas and minhugim of the communities they join, that gives them no license to transgress halacha, even when those communities are lax in halachas of tznius.

I'm not interested in derailing this thread with the commenting on this community doing this or that community doing that, but for the sake of the truth being set on record, it is not only about "rebel ex-Chareidm" not following halacha. There are some MOs who do not practice the halachas of tznius. There are some in dati leumi communities who don't adhere to halachas of tznius. You have this type of dress all over, not only by "rebel Ex-Chareidim".
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gold21




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, May 17 2020, 4:17 pm
CiCi wrote:
Wearing tights is not a chimrah. The wearing of tights is halacha for those who are bought up in communities where that is the shittah that is followed. For me wearing tights is not a chimrah, it is halacha. I understand that some people have a hard time living in Chassidishe communities or other Chareidi communities and they seek out a different derech. Even if they adopt the shittas and minhugim of the communities they join, that gives them no license to transgress halacha, even when those communities are lax in halachas of tznius.

I'm not interested in derailing this thread with the commenting on this community doing this or that community doing that, but for the sake of the truth being set on record, it is not only about "rebel ex-Chareidm" not following halacha. There are some MOs who do not practice the halachas of tznius. There are some in dati leumi communities who don't adhere to halachas of tznius. You have this type of dress all over, not only by "rebel Ex-Chareidim".


Wearing tights is a chumrah. Check again.
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Ora in town




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, May 17 2020, 4:21 pm
CiCi wrote:
Coming from a community where wearing tights is considered to be halacha, and after reading the sefer Oz Ve-hadar Levusha, I assumed the halachas applied across the board for frum women. I never particularly thought into it when I saw women who did not cover their legs but their knees and ankles were covered. If I were to do so, I'd assume that they are not familiar with the halacha of covering their legs.

But disregarding my long-held belief regarding halacha, most of the women I see not wearing tights in the last decade or so, or who have taken off their tights, are wearing short tight skirts with the knees visible and thighs visible when sitting, some even nowadays wearing mini skirts (with their shaitels!) and therefore I did not even question whether wearing tights is permissable or not. It smelled totally assor to me. It was not the tights itself, but the type of clothing that reeked from licentious. This mode of "dress" is revolting.

Now as I see the Mishna Brirah does ok legs showing as long as the knees and ankles are covered, I would not assume anymore that someone like you does not know halacha. And I can now differentiate between not wearing tights with the leg sufficiently covered per halacha and being dressed like a pritzah.

Anyway, what I or people like me think is irrelevant. Wink Its what Hashem demands of us that's the bottom line!

Now you're talking!
Wearing tights is assur!!!
This sounds like a very humane halacha to me... Although it's the first time I hear about it...
So why are there people who think it is especially "frum" to have 3-year-olds wear tights, if wearing tights is assur in general? Is it so the 3-year-olds get it out of their system before they turn bat mitzwa, when it is really assur?
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CiCi




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, May 17 2020, 4:27 pm
Ora in town wrote:
Now you're talking!
Wearing tights is assur!!!
This sounds like a very humane halacha to me... Although it's the first time I hear about it...
So why are there people who think it is especially "frum" to have 3-year-olds wear tights, if wearing tights is assur in general? Is it so the 3-year-olds get it out of their system before they turn bat mitzwa, when it is really assur?


I hope you are making your comment in jest because I was very OBVIOUSLY making a mistake with what I wrote...goodness...Please tell me you are kidding.

P.S. I fixed it for you.
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Ora in town




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, May 17 2020, 4:51 pm
CiCi wrote:
I hope you are making your comment in jest because I was very OBVIOUSLY making a mistake with what I wrote...goodness...Please tell me you are kidding.

P.S. I fixed it for you.

So with all your chumres, you are getting so confused that you don't know assur from mutar any more?
In my view, that's one of the main problem with all those chumres when they are not properly taught as chumres, but keilu they were halacha.
An even bigger problem is the judgemental attitude that often comes with those chumres towards people who don't share those chumres, like the attitude you displayed right here, in this thread (and also in many other threads) towards women who dress differently than you...
Or are you just a troll who wants to make Satmer & co look bad?
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