Do you listen to speakers you don't fully agree with?

amother

Mon, May 18 2020, 12:11 am

Let's say there was a very well known speaker who is very famous and popular, and everyone says is "amazing." Or even if they were just a regular speaker... If you listened to them, and suddenly they said something against your values:

like for me I guess, a subtly racist remark, , subtly mentioning they are anti vaxers (let's not get off topic... ), saying a statement like "the internet is evil (no grey areas),"or maybe you can tell they are judgmental against a certain group, basically something that just doesn't sit well with you...would you continue to listen to that person and just choose to ignore that value about them, or would you kind of be turned off.."

I'm reading this emunah books, I don't want to say which one, and the speaker could say something like.. "If one is very meticulous in this area, then they will definitely merit to see X reward, or if one does this, they will experience suffering in this area... It's written in a very dramatic and absolutely certain way.. like the opposite cannot possible be true,

I just cringe and get angry... because this is not always true, I get angry because life is soooo grey and I know there are black and white statements in the torah like this... but for some reason it is so hard for me to read things like this.. I'm trying to get past this.. cause I know it's a flaw in me... bh I'm almost finished with the book and I think I benefited from it, it's just hard sometimes to get past statements like that for some reason.. I get very bitter. but I try to see the greater message. This is something I'm trying to work on... I'm not sure what it is.

So what do you think? I guss I have two questions
1. Do you sometimes disagree with the speakers you listen too on major values of yours but continue to listen to them?
2. how do you approach these types of books (or speakers) that say things that are just not always true?

thanks!

amother

Salmon

Mon, May 18 2020, 12:20 am

The examples you used to illustrate your point, and IRL example are vastly different, IMHO.
Is it the area you are attempting to learn from the lecturer/author that doesn't sit well with you? Or is it another area?
If its the former, I don't see what can be gained, aside from heightened angst and cynicism.
If its the latter, I'm perfectly ok with it.
I don't have a good answer for your questions, but I'd like to believe that someone IRL, perhaps even the author of this book, may be able to help you.

amother

Forestgreen

Mon, May 18 2020, 12:23 am

If it's something that started out with a good message but got slightly detailed by something I didn't agree with I would probably keep listening/reading and just roll my eyes and brush off the part that ruffled my feathers. But I guess it also depends on what it is. I'm sure there were times when someone said something and my immediate reaction was, "nope." And then I just turned it off. But I do try to read and listen to a lot of different things and sometimes something seems off at first but then if I listen more and try to be more open minded it can be a learning experience.

But I'm also like you, I am not a fan of blanket statements or black and white views without any gray areas.

seeker

Mon, May 18 2020, 12:27 am

It depends which kind of thing I disagree with. A derogatory comment about vaxers/non-vaxers if it's not happening in every other lecture, I could move on and say "we view this differently...ok." I find this happens a lot with political positions but if politics isn't the topic of discussion I can let it slide off.

But things like fire and brimstone, "if you do this then that" or "this happened because of that" would turn me a lot farther away.

Just for example. But if you feel you can gain from the book even though you have to disagree with parts, then why not?

amother

Mon, May 18 2020, 12:28 am

amother [ Salmon ] wrote:

Maybe this is childish.. but I think I'm more bothered by the seemingly lack of recognition in the writing that the opposite of what the author dramatically says can be true. I think and pretty much know in a way that if I approached this lecturer and spoke about this we wouldn't disagree ultimatily. but I think if someone writes a book they need to know some people don't think for themselves and can really just blindly trust that what they are reading is always fact... I would be fine with "though the internet has benefits.. there are many risks to consider.." or "doing XYZ is connected to this reward " not "you will hundred percent get this reward I'd you do this "

amother

Yellow

Mon, May 18 2020, 12:29 am

Yes, there is a well known speaker I stopped listening to because of an awful joke he made during a lecture about babies being thrown into garbage cans (this was years ago, in the 90s, when there was an unfortunate spate of teenage mothers doing this with their newborn babies they had managed to keep secret through their pregnancies).
He is still well known and regarded, and I doubt he remembers that joke but I was appalled then and still appalled by it now.
Other speakers, even if I don't agree with them, if I still respect them, I can listen to.

amother

Mistyrose

Mon, May 18 2020, 12:31 am

Someone who claims to have all the answers, or thinks in black and white terms, can be hard to respect. That doesn't mean that he doesn't have good insights about anything, only that you need to take them with a grain of salt.

Human beings are complex. It's possible for someone to have great insights in one area and not be a moral role model. In Torah, however, you can't make that distinction. A teacher has to have internalized Torah in order to teach it.

In the world of ideas, it's valuable, and intellectually honest, to understand those with whom you disagree. I'm MO/DL, whatever label you want to use, and have a copy of Vayoel Moshe in my house. I find it horrific, but at least I know what he had to say.

In general, I think the standards are different for someone who is alive now (a speaker) versus someone who lived long ago. Racism wasn't a good thing a hundred years ago, but you can extend a certain courtesy because of different cultural norms. Today, it's unacceptable, period.

There are enough good speakers and writers out there that you don't have to settle for someone you can't respect.

ShishKabob

Mon, May 18 2020, 12:33 am

amother [ Mistyrose ] wrote:

Excellent post!

amother

Salmon

Mon, May 18 2020, 12:39 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I agree that writing a book is a responsibility. The second part of your sentence, may partially answer this. Often, a certain audience does blindly trust. And for them, it is ok to hear different messages than other people.
My mother repeated a part of a lecture to me that she found so inspiring. I was absolutely put off by it.
I guess that lecturer is good for people like my mother (and this is not an age thing), and not for people like me.
There are many paths to avodas Hashem, and I don't have to take from what doesn't resonate with me. Nor do I have to dismiss those who inspire others.

amother

Mon, May 18 2020, 12:59 am

amother [ Salmon ] wrote:

Wow this was super helpful for me thank you!

Edit : I think your last sentence should be like an affirmation type quote on my fridge haha Very Happy

amother

Cerulean

Mon, May 18 2020, 2:07 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I look at it more as being on a certain level in emunah (there are so many levels) than opposing your values.
Everyone, on their level, learns something else from various books and speakers. What's amazing for one person may sometimes be just 'okay' for another. And it's totally fine.
I would say, if overall you like the book/speaker but this 1 thing you don't fully agree or understand how it's possible, move on. Maybe one day you will!

amother

Navy

Mon, May 18 2020, 2:17 am

It depends how much it gets to me.

My very favorite lecturer when I was in school (great personality, cared about students, highly edge-of-your-seat entertaining, knowledgeable in her field) was anti-vaccine and I'm pro-vaccine. During the semester she only made two anti-vaccine comments and I remember being shocked and a bit appalled, but she was DEFINITELY still my favorite lecturer.

If someone said something anti-Semitic, I don't think I'd forgive that or be able to like them after that. I've stopped liking/watching a few comedians because of anti-Semitic (anti - Israel) comments they made.

FranticFrummie

Mon, May 18 2020, 4:41 am

I have zero tolerance for bigoted/hate speech, but other than that I'm pretty open. I like an intellectual challenge, and I can learn something from just about anybody. I don't think it's dangerous to be open minded, as long as we have the filter of Torah in our minds as well.

There have been posters here who I have bumped heads with in the past, who have ended up teaching me a lot. I've come to really love and respect them, even though we don't see eye to eye on a lot of things. I'll take on debating any issue, as long as it stays civil.

(If nothing else, just remember that even a broken clock is right twice a day! Tongue Out

)