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amother
OP
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 Tue, May 19 2020, 7:09 am
I have been through some struggles, strengthened myself in Emunah by learning Sefarim and excepting challenge. BH I saw tremendous Yeshuah, chutz lderech hateva
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This thread may be of one where we can all get together, work on our Emunah and share Yeshuahs!!
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amother
Powderblue
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Tue, May 19 2020, 7:30 am
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I don’t have something specific that I did, but I daven to Hashem all the time, in my own words, constantly thank him for many little things, even finding a parking spot, am careful with shemiras halashon (and other things) and was involved with a lot of chesed (before covid), and BH I saw a huge yeshua, a real true miracle. I think I also really strengthened my emuna and put everything into God’s hands and it’s amazing how He took over! (Of course I know He was always the one in control, but I think I had to relinquish that control to Him in order to see these yeshuos.) I really believe that if you have true emuna, you will see a lot of yeshuos.
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PinkFridge
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Tue, May 19 2020, 8:48 am
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I think that with emunah, even if you don't see yeshuos you wanted, you can reframe things to function, and function with joy and meaning.
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amother
Powderblue
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Tue, May 19 2020, 8:52 am
| PinkFridge wrote: | | I think that with emunah, even if you don't see yeshuos you wanted, you can reframe things to function, and function with joy and meaning. |
Yes exactly!
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amother
Goldenrod
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Tue, May 19 2020, 11:06 am
| PinkFridge wrote: | | I think that with emunah, even if you don't see yeshuos you wanted, you can reframe things to function, and function with joy and meaning. |
What I find is that if I would ask on this site what emunah means the responses would be that it means we trust in hashem that everything that happens, both the good and bad are for our benefit.
However, when people talk about their personal stories, it is inevitably how they were in a difficult situation and they had emunah and hashem fixed the problem. Completely the opposite of what seemingly everyone says the definition of emunah is.
It really is hard to believe the gap between what people say and how they really feel.
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amother
Sienna
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Tue, May 19 2020, 12:24 pm
| amother [ Goldenrod ] wrote: | What I find is that if I would ask on this site what emunah means the responses would be that it means we trust in hashem that everything that happens, both the good and bad are for our benefit.
However, when people talk about their personal stories, it is inevitably how they were in a difficult situation and they had emunah and hashem fixed the problem. Completely the opposite of what seemingly everyone says the definition of emunah is.
It really is hard to believe the gap between what people say and how they really feel. |
Well, you know, it's really, really, really...challenging...(G-d forbid I should say difficult) to be truly as grateful for what we see as trying (G-d forbid I should say bad) as for what we see as good. Even when we say "gam zu letovah" and "surely in the big picture this is a good thing, we just can't see the pattern because we're too close to it", we're human. We're hurting. Only masochists chortle "hurts so good" as their skin is being flayed off their bodies.
Do you really expect people to carry on conversations at kiddush that go like this:
--I just lost my job, Baruch Hashem. So grateful that I can't make the mortgage payments and may lose my house, kein ayin hara. I'm sure I deserve this and it'll be the very kapparah I need to slide right into Gan Eden when my time comes!
--I know, right? I just found out dh has a major gambling problem! Isn't that wonderful? Just think of all the sachar I'm racking up in Shamayim by not saying anything.
--And I just lost my first baby at twenty weeks. I'm so grateful to have this zechus, because the pain and anguish will polish away all those little slubs and nubs on my character and I'll come out on the other side a practically perfect person!
Seriously? You expect ordinary people to tell stories like that? Only giants like Asseret Harugei HaMalchut can weep for joy to have the opportunity to be mekayem the mitzvah of "veahavta...bechol nafshecha" as they're being roasted alive.
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PinkFridge
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Tue, May 19 2020, 12:39 pm
| amother [ Goldenrod ] wrote: | What I find is that if I would ask on this site what emunah means the responses would be that it means we trust in hashem that everything that happens, both the good and bad are for our benefit.
However, when people talk about their personal stories, it is inevitably how they were in a difficult situation and they had emunah and hashem fixed the problem. Completely the opposite of what seemingly everyone says the definition of emunah is.
It really is hard to believe the gap between what people say and how they really feel. |
.
Here's a story about Rav Moshe Schwab, zt"l, of Monsey, told by his talmid Rav Zev Smith: Rav Smith went to visit hime one chol hamoed and was taken aback by how his rebbi's situation had detriorated. Rav Schwab said (I might not be saying this exactly), that he wants to go to shul but Hashem put him in this situation where he can't, and he lives by the dictum "chayim birtzono": life is according to His will, not ours.
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amother
Ivory
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Tue, May 19 2020, 12:43 pm
| amother [ Goldenrod ] wrote: | What I find is that if I would ask on this site what emunah means the responses would be that it means we trust in hashem that everything that happens, both the good and bad are for our benefit.
However, when people talk about their personal stories, it is inevitably how they were in a difficult situation and they had emunah and hashem fixed the problem. Completely the opposite of what seemingly everyone says the definition of emunah is.
It really is hard to believe the gap between what people say and how they really feel. |
There are people, even in our generation, who have reached incredible levels of emunah. You reminded me of the awful day I attended the levaya of a child. The child's father said, "Tzaddik H-shem bechol derachav vechassid bechol maasav." The way he said it you knew it came straight from his heart and he meant it.
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amother
Goldenrod
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Tue, May 19 2020, 12:49 pm
| amother [ Sienna ] wrote: | Well, you know, it's really, really, really...challenging...(G-d forbid I should say difficult) to be truly as grateful for what we see as trying (G-d forbid I should say bad) as for what we see as good. Even when we say "gam zu letovah" and "surely in the big picture this is a good thing, we just can't see the pattern because we're too close to it", we're human. We're hurting. Only masochists chortle "hurts so good" as their skin is being flayed off their bodies.
Do you really expect people to carry on conversations at kiddush that go like this:
--I just lost my job, Baruch Hashem. So grateful that I can't make the mortgage payments and may lose my house, kein ayin hara. I'm sure I deserve this and it'll be the very kapparah I need to slide right into Gan Eden when my time comes!
--I know, right? I just found out dh has a major gambling problem! Isn't that wonderful? Just think of all the sachar I'm racking up in Shamayim by not saying anything.
--And I just lost my first baby at twenty weeks. I'm so grateful to have this zechus, because the pain and anguish will polish away all those little slubs and nubs on my character and I'll come out on the other side a practically perfect person!
Seriously? You expect ordinary people to tell stories like that? Only giants like Asseret Harugei HaMalchut can weep for joy to have the opportunity to be mekayem the mitzvah of "veahavta...bechol nafshecha" as they're being roasted alive. |
I agree with everything you wrote 100%. I struggle with emunah because I don't think it is shayach for myself (or 99%) of us. For example when I see a post yesterday that a mother is worried that her 25 year old daughter is still single. The pure emunah answer is that hashem knows best and for reasons we don't understand maybe hashem knows it's better for her to be single and alone her whole life.
Sorry, I don't think ANYONE really feels this way, yet that's what true emunah would dictate. Instead we give our practical definition of emunah (like we see in this thread) and we say to have emunah, meaning have faith in the result that hashem will find her a shidduch.
I read several emunah books. Just about every one has many stories that link emunah to hashem solving problems. I guess it bothers me when people say that emunah is not about the result. The emunah I have is that hashem who is our loving father will protect me, give me health, children, money, shidduchim, and other necessities. Not that he will abandon me, but that sickness and poverty is really good for reasons we don't understand. I'm not buying that.
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amother
OP
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Tue, May 19 2020, 12:57 pm
| amother [ Goldenrod ] wrote: | What I find is that if I would ask on this site what emunah means the responses would be that it means we trust in hashem that everything that happens, both the good and bad are for our benefit.
However, when people talk about their personal stories, it is inevitably how they were in a difficult situation and they had emunah and hashem fixed the problem. Completely the opposite of what seemingly everyone says the definition of emunah is.
It really is hard to believe the gap between what people say and how they really feel. |
Okay, I see what your saying... now looking back at my OP it may be coming off that way, so let me explain.... no I did not work on my Emunah so my problem can be "fixed" I BH reached a place where I was able to fully excepted my challenge however the outcome may be, after a while when I had my Yeshuah that itself was a tremendous a bonus, a gift Hashem granted me, but the serenity and peace in life experience came before, when I accepted that everything is from Hashem and that EIN OD MELVADO nothing happens without him.
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amother
Goldenrod
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Tue, May 19 2020, 1:22 pm
| amother [ OP ] wrote: | | Okay, I see what your saying... now looking back at my OP it may be coming off that way, so let me explain.... no I did not work on my Emunah so my problem can be "fixed" I BH reached a place where I was able to fully excepted my challenge however the outcome may be, after a while when I had my Yeshuah that itself was a tremendous a bonus, a gift Hashem granted me, but the serenity and peace in life experience came before, when I accepted that everything is from Hashem and that EIN OD MELVADO nothing happens without him. |
Op, I chas v'shalom didn't mean to attack you. May you continue to see brochos and yeshuous!
I just think as simple human beings we can't really have emunah on the level were we are content with suffering because it's hashems will. It's just impossible. A person is not wired to say that they are happy with sickness, disease or infertility because it is hashems will.
Obviously there are greats in every generation who perhaps are the exception. But for the rest of us these claims of excepting suffering and internalizing that it's really good seems impossible to me.
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amother
OP
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Tue, May 19 2020, 2:04 pm
| amother [ Goldenrod ] wrote: | Op, I chas v'shalom didn't mean to attack you. May you continue to see brochos and yeshuous!
I just think as simple human beings we can't really have emunah on the level were we are content with suffering because it's hashems will. It's just impossible. A person is not wired to say that they are happy with sickness, disease or infertility because it is hashems will.
Obviously there are greats in every generation who perhaps are the exception. But for the rest of us these claims of excepting suffering and internalizing that it's really good seems impossible to me. |
for the record my challenge WAS infertility...
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ssspectacular
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Tue, May 19 2020, 3:07 pm
| amother [ Goldenrod ] wrote: | I agree with everything you wrote 100%. I struggle with emunah because I don't think it is shayach for myself (or 99%) of us. For example when I see a post yesterday that a mother is worried that her 25 year old daughter is still single. The pure emunah answer is that hashem knows best and for reasons we don't understand maybe hashem knows it's better for her to be single and alone her whole life.
Sorry, I don't think ANYONE really feels this way, yet that's what true emunah would dictate. Instead we give our practical definition of emunah (like we see in this thread) and we say to have emunah, meaning have faith in the result that hashem will find her a shidduch.
I read several emunah books. Just about every one has many stories that link emunah to hashem solving problems. I guess it bothers me when people say that emunah is not about the result. The emunah I have is that hashem who is our loving father will protect me, give me health, children, money, shidduchim, and other necessities. Not that he will abandon me, but that sickness and poverty is really good for reasons we don't understand. I'm not buying that. |
This is very simplistic. There is a difference between accepting Hashem's well and being happy about it. I don't think any of us are happy that we have painful challenges, but accepting them, not fighting Hashem is a wonderful place to be.
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amother
Goldenrod
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Tue, May 19 2020, 4:04 pm
| ssspectacular wrote: | | This is very simplistic. There is a difference between accepting Hashem's well and being happy about it. I don't think any of us are happy that we have painful challenges, but accepting them, not fighting Hashem is a wonderful place to be. |
I don't think anyone can accept suffering and reach a wonderful place. Humans aren't created that way. Is a parent with unmarried adult children supposed to reach a wonderful place as she watches them in pain because it might be hashems plan for them to be alone their whole lives? I don't think any of us are sincere when we tell someone struggling to "have emunah" in the context of what you're saying.
Meaning, if someone is struggling a long time with infertility. When I tell them "have emunah" I mean to say to have faith that hashem will give you your desired outcome and you should have a baby.
You're saying in the same example that when you tell a women struggling with infertility that you're telling her to try to come to terms with the idea that it might be hashems wish for her to remain childless for forever. This might be his perfect plan and it is good for her to suffer with this even though we don't understand why.
I don't think anyone really means the second choice. Do you?
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amother
Orchid
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Tue, May 19 2020, 4:38 pm
| amother [ Goldenrod ] wrote: | I don't think anyone can accept suffering and reach a wonderful place. Humans aren't created that way. Is a parent with unmarried adult children supposed to reach a wonderful place as she watches them in pain because it might be hashems plan for them to be alone their whole lives? I don't think any of us are sincere when we tell someone struggling to "have emunah" in the context of what you're saying.
Meaning, if someone is struggling a long time with infertility. When I tell them "have emunah" I mean to say to have faith that hashem will give you your desired outcome and you should have a baby.
You're saying in the same example that when you tell a women struggling with infertility that you're telling her to try to come to terms with the idea that it might be hashems wish for her to remain childless for forever. This might be his perfect plan and it is good for her to suffer with this even though we don't understand why.
I don't think anyone really means the second choice. Do you? |
many people with the painful challenge of infertility can only stay sane if they accept minute by minute that hashm is in this with them.
The same goes for many others whose life is one piece of emotional pain and they live with it.
some of us literally ask hashm please help me cope. please help me go on. please give me strength.
hold my hand.
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ssspectacular
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Tue, May 19 2020, 5:04 pm
| amother [ Goldenrod ] wrote: | I don't think anyone can accept suffering and reach a wonderful place. Humans aren't created that way. Is a parent with unmarried adult children supposed to reach a wonderful place as she watches them in pain because it might be hashems plan for them to be alone their whole lives? I don't think any of us are sincere when we tell someone struggling to "have emunah" in the context of what you're saying.
Meaning, if someone is struggling a long time with infertility. When I tell them "have emunah" I mean to say to have faith that hashem will give you your desired outcome and you should have a baby.
You're saying in the same example that when you tell a women struggling with infertility that you're telling her to try to come to terms with the idea that it might be hashems wish for her to remain childless for forever. This might be his perfect plan and it is good for her to suffer with this even though we don't understand why.
I don't think anyone really means the second choice. Do you? |
Sometimes the right thing is to stop fighting Hashem's will and accept the situation FOR NOW. It doesn't mean that things will be like this forever. But acceptance is often necessary before the yeshuah comes. That has been my experience. Obviously not everyone's.
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amother
OP
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Tue, May 19 2020, 8:05 pm
| amother [ Goldenrod ] wrote: | I don't think anyone can accept suffering and reach a wonderful place. Humans aren't created that way. Is a parent with unmarried adult children supposed to reach a wonderful place as she watches them in pain because it might be hashems plan for them to be alone their whole lives? I don't think any of us are sincere when we tell someone struggling to "have emunah" in the context of what you're saying.
Meaning, if someone is struggling a long time with infertility. When I tell them "have emunah" I mean to say to have faith that hashem will give you your desired outcome and you should have a baby.
You're saying in the same example that when you tell a women struggling with infertility that you're telling her to try to come to terms with the idea that it might be hashems wish for her to remain childless for forever. This might be his perfect plan and it is good for her to suffer with this even though we don't understand why.
I don't think anyone really means the second choice. Do you? |
This level can only be obtained through the person in challenge themselves, no one should EVER say that to another, but when a person reaches this level of Emunah his life will be blessed with serenity and peace, and yes it is possible to come to terms with situations if you really believe in Hashem
That does not mean they will go around with attitude like "oh how great I dont have kids!!" but rather, Hashem has plans and maybe that's not his plan, or maybe just not yet....
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dbw
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Tue, Jun 02 2020, 12:25 am
Which seforim in emunah did you study and which one did you find most meaningful?
Does accepting mean it doesn't bother you anymore and if so would that mitigate the need to daven and cry out to Hashem which may be the reason Hashem is sending the suffering in the first place- to wake the person up, to make him grow, to help him discover the potential great parts of himself he never would have discovered without the pain?
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