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Minyans now allowed in NY State
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Miri1




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, May 20 2020, 11:50 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
Don’t have to. Wait for 9 more to arrive in the next room.

Ideally, these are all set up in advance anyway.


Actually the idea in the works is that the minyanim would be like "chaburos" - the same 10 would daven together each time.
But the the technical issues with only allowing 10 as opposed to say 12, mean that minyanim may have more flux. If someone doesn't show, they'll just pull in someone else from outside the group.
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SixOfWands




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, May 20 2020, 11:50 pm
amother [ Papaya ] wrote:
I am so so jealous. I live in a state that basically threw us in jail and tossed away the key, and Jews are such a small percentage that no one cares what we think or what we want.

See you all next year! Sad Crying


Unless the state has declared that Jews may not hold communal services, but Xian’s and Muslim may, that’s ridiculous.
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SixOfWands




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, May 20 2020, 11:56 pm
Miri1 wrote:
Actually the idea in the works is that the minyanim would be like "chaburos" - the same 10 would daven together each time.
But the the technical issues with only allowing 10 as opposed to say 12, mean that minyanim may have more flux. If someone doesn't show, they'll just pull in someone else from outside the group.


Yes, that’s what I think will happen. And that you would either be assigned a time and place, or sign up for one in advance, especially on Shabbat and Yom Tov. I believe you will also need your own siddur.

Presumably, this will also allow people to learn together on Shavuot.
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cbsp




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, May 21 2020, 12:18 am
SixOfWands wrote:
In other words, nothing Cuomo does will make you happy. 10 is a minyan. Why are more needed?

This isn’t a “crumb.” It’s exactly what people say they wanted. Until they got it, and need to still attack Cuomo.



I'm not following how your response answers my post.

Did the governor tell Home Depot that they have a quota of money they're allowed to earn in a day and after that they need to be closed? As far as I know the restrictions on stores that were allowed to be opened were either left up to the stores or based on occupancy. There seems to be a logical way to determine how to crowd control but still allow shoppers to go about their business.

We have a religious need for our religious institutions. It is not up to any government official to dictate what is a necessary obligation for a religious individual.

But to answer your question as to why I'm not happy:

Each individual should be davening with a minyan, we don't only need a minyan for a shul's existence.

I don't know other religions but to compare to what once was, it would be like saying "well, we allowed those Jews to bring the korban tomid, why are they complaining that no one else was allowed to bring their karbonos."

In other words, it's nice that there will be kaddish said in a community again, but why can't it be done in a safe way that enables the maximum rather than the minimum number of people to participate properly for their own obligations.
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SixOfWands




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, May 21 2020, 12:28 am
cbsp wrote:
I'm not following how your response answers my post.

Did the governor tell Home Depot that they have a quota of money they're allowed to earn in a day and after that they need to be closed? As far as I know the restrictions on stores that were allowed to be opened were either left up to the stores or based on occupancy. There seems to be a logical way to determine how to crowd control but still allow shoppers to go about their business.

We have a religious need for our religious institutions. It is not up to any government official to dictate what is a necessary obligation for a religious individual.

But to answer your question as to why I'm not happy:

Each individual should be davening with a minyan, we don't only need a minyan for a shul's existence.

I don't know other religions but to compare to what once was, it would be like saying "well, we allowed those Jews to bring the korban tomid, why are they complaining that no one else was allowed to bring their karbonos."

In other words, it's nice that there will be kaddish said in a community again, but why can't it be done in a safe way that enables the maximum rather than the minimum number of people to participate properly for their own obligations.


I wasn’t aware that people in Home Depot sit down together for anywhere from half an hour to 2 hours, talking (well, davening, using their mouths). Maybe I go to the wrong store.

And how is the conversation going to go. Andrew, 10 isn’t enough. We need more. Hmmm, let me ask a rabbi. Rabbi says you need 10. So why do you need more? Well .... look, 12 would be nice. And I doubt anyone is going to do anything about 12. But more is risky for now. Maybe in a few weeks.

Oh, and the point is that you can’t differentiate between religions. Just like you can’t say Xian’s can meet, Jews can’t, you can’t give different numbers per sect.
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cbsp




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, May 21 2020, 12:52 am
SixOfWands wrote:
I wasn’t aware that people in Home Depot sit down together for anywhere from half an hour to 2 hours, talking (well, davening, using their mouths). Maybe I go to the wrong store.

And how is the conversation going to go. Andrew, 10 isn’t enough. We need more. Hmmm, let me ask a rabbi. Rabbi says you need 10. So why do you need more? Well .... look, 12 would be nice. And I doubt anyone is going to do anything about 12. But more is risky for now. Maybe in a few weeks.

Oh, and the point is that you can’t differentiate between religions. Just like you can’t say Xian’s can meet, Jews can’t, you can’t give different numbers per sect.


Again.

There are occupancy numbers per each building /room. Start there. X number of feet between each person, reduce permitted occupancy by whatever is the safe number. The time factor is a straw argument - just look at the subways. Or the pharmacies. Or Target, where people are standing in line for an hour talking away either with their shopping companions or on the phone.

Why should a large church building be limited to only 10 people? Because the Jews have 10 as a minimum? Why should a shul be restricted to its minimum? The shul as an entity "holding services" is not just an item to check off a list.

I'm not understanding why you're making it out to be the benevolence of the governor who's doling out privileges based on religious requirements. Why on earth should he be telling ANY religion what their numbers should be?
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amother




Maroon
 

Post  Thu, May 21 2020, 9:08 am
cbsp wrote:
Again.

There are occupancy numbers per each building /room. Start there. X number of feet between each person, reduce permitted occupancy by whatever is the safe number. The time factor is a straw argument - just look at the subways. Or the pharmacies. Or Target, where people are standing in line for an hour talking away either with their shopping companions or on the phone.

Why should a large church building be limited to only 10 people? Because the Jews have 10 as a minimum? Why should a shul be restricted to its minimum? The shul as an entity "holding services" is not just an item to check off a list.

I'm not understanding why you're making it out to be the benevolence of the governor who's doling out privileges based on religious requirements. Why on earth should he be telling ANY religion what their numbers should be?

So why the number 10 limit? Some shuls are huge, while others are one room basements. If Home Depot has the right to adjust its occupants according to their size, shuls should too.

BTW, this is the argument KJ used two weeks ago when they legally reopened their shuls. Shuls were allowed 2 seats per table. Once filled, you had to wait for next minyan.
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amother




Mint
 

Post  Thu, May 21 2020, 9:31 am
You can't compare davening to going shopping. The virus spreads much more when people are talking, praying and singing. There was a a choir practice of over 100 people were 87% tested positive after it spread to all from one person.
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cbsp




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, May 21 2020, 9:56 am
amother [ Mint ] wrote:
You can't compare davening to going shopping. The virus spreads much more when people are talking, praying and singing. There was a a choir practice of over 100 people were 87% tested positive after it spread to all from one person.


I specifically mentioned standing in line for this reason. Or the subway cars/public transportation. There's plenty of talking going on on the. At a much closer distance.

And everyone is masked and taking precautions. The choir that got sick was not maintaining social distancing nor wearing masks.

The 10 people limit makes zero sense medically or scientifically without the context of size of the establishment. It makes no sense even with the context of size unless it's a facility that can only accommodate exactly 10 people with the safety rules.

It's an arbitrary number picked as a way to pander and we're calling him out for it.
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cbsp




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, May 21 2020, 9:56 am
amother [ Maroon ] wrote:
So why the number 10 limit? Some shuls are huge, while others are one room basements. If Home Depot has the right to adjust its occupants according to their size, shuls should too.

BTW, this is the argument KJ used two weeks ago when they legally reopened their shuls. Shuls were allowed 2 seats per table. Once filled, you had to wait for next minyan.


Yup, that's precisely my point.
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mig100




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, May 21 2020, 10:02 am
cbsp wrote:
Yup, that's precisely my point.


I'm finding this discussion rather amusing. Now that they allowed minyan let's still find ways to complain. 10 is a minyan. It's enough. They are allowing minyan before many other things. I am grateful. Very

There is no perfectly correct way to do it. personally, I agree with the gov that limiting crowds to the minimum is a good idea. No matter how big the space is once you have 100 people sd is difficult.

They are allowing us to have minyan . My husband is beyond thrilled. So am I. Smile

Next topic for me. Have a good day Very Happy Smile Very Happy
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cbsp




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, May 21 2020, 10:11 am
mig100 wrote:
I'm finding this discussion rather amusing. Now that they allowed minyan let's still find ways to complain. 10 is a minyan. It's enough. They are allowing minyan before many other things. I am grateful. Very

There is no perfectly correct way to do it. personally, I agree with the gov that limiting crowds to the minimum is a good idea. No matter how big the space is once you have 100 people sd is difficult.

They are allowing us to have minyan . My husband is beyond thrilled. So am I. Smile

Next topic for me. Have a good day Very Happy Smile Very Happy


If he wouldn't be one of the 10 would he still be so beyond thrilled?

Are you so thrilled that women are effectively excluded from attending shul?

Would you be so thrilled if the same edict also said that there needs to be equal representation of men and women (thereby nullifying the quorum)? What's to stop them from dictating that as well?

Why are we so copacetic about the government getting involved in the minutiae of religious requirements?

There are objective standards that can be applied. Why aren't we applying them?
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Miri1




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, May 21 2020, 10:23 am
SixOfWands wrote:
Yes, that’s what I think will happen. And that you would either be assigned a time and place, or sign up for one in advance, especially on Shabbat and Yom Tov. I believe you will also need your own siddur.

Presumably, this will also allow people to learn together on Shavuot.


My point was that it will be less effective because with the 10 person limit there will be more mixing between groups.
A 12 person limit would really (in theory) keep the groups self sufficient.
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amother




Mint
 

Post  Thu, May 21 2020, 10:50 am
I really don't undestand the NY mentality expressed here to be honest. What is all this about expecting to have the autonomy to do as you wish?

You live somewhere, you need to keep to the rules. Do you think Cuomo is the only governing body who said minyanim have to close whereas essential stores can remain open?

Shuls have been closed worldwide as a safety precaution. We're all in this together and we are all (hopefully) keeping to the regulations as long as we need to. Now they have been restarted in NY so you can be thankful and move on. It isn't that hard to keep to the 10-person limit. You do what you have to do.
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cbsp




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, May 21 2020, 10:58 am
amother [ Mint ] wrote:
I really don't undestand the NY mentality expressed here to be honest. What is all this about expecting to have the autonomy to do as you wish? You live somewhere, you need to keep to the rules. Do you think Cuomo is the only governing body who said minyanim have to close?
Shuls have been closed worldwide as a safety precaution, and we are all (hopefully) keeping to the regulations as long as we need to.


That's actually not the point. We're not discussing that the shuls were closed.

We're discussing why we're not overly enthusiastic with the way they're being opened. We absolutely should be given the autonomy to figure out our specific religious observances in a legal and safe manner.
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mig100




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, May 21 2020, 9:23 pm
amother [ Mint ] wrote:
I really don't undestand the NY mentality expressed here to be honest. What is all this about expecting to have the autonomy to do as you wish?

You live somewhere, you need to keep to the rules. Do you think Cuomo is the only governing body who said minyanim have to close whereas essential stores can remain open?

Shuls have been closed worldwide as a safety precaution. We're all in this together and we are all (hopefully) keeping to the regulations as long as we need to. Now they have been restarted in NY so you can be thankful and move on. It isn't that hard to keep to the 10-person limit. You do what you have to do.


Guess what?????? I lived in my my whole.life and I dont get it either.

I'm beyond grateful go live someplace where the government cares and wants to protect our lives?? ( even if in don't agree with exactly how they go about it, which I dont)

Would u rather live in a place like china where the gov let's people die to protect the economy?? I wouldnt
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tryinghard




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, May 21 2020, 9:32 pm
amother [ Mint ] wrote:
I really don't undestand the NY mentality expressed here to be honest. What is all this about expecting to have the autonomy to do as you wish?

You live somewhere, you need to keep to the rules. Do you think Cuomo is the only governing body who said minyanim have to close whereas essential stores can remain open?

Shuls have been closed worldwide as a safety precaution. We're all in this together and we are all (hopefully) keeping to the regulations as long as we need to. Now they have been restarted in NY so you can be thankful and move on. It isn't that hard to keep to the 10-person limit. You do what you have to do.


It’s not just NY, and it’s not just the Jews. I’m Minnesota, there’s a huge controversy right now because in their reopening guidelines, starting June 1st, restaurants are permitted to have 50 people outdoors, but churches can only have 10 even outdoors, even with proper SD.
There is actual discrimination going on against religious institutions from NY to California and so many other states, and the DOJ is starting to crack down on it.
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amother




Maroon
 

Post  Thu, May 21 2020, 9:34 pm
tryinghard wrote:
It’s not just NY, and it’s not just the Jews. I’m Minnesota, there’s a huge controversy right now because in their reopening guidelines, starting June 1st, restaurants are permitted to have 50 people outdoors, but churches can only have 10 even outdoors, even with proper SD.
There is actual discrimination going on against religious institutions from NY to California and so many other states, and the DOJ is starting to crack down on it.

I can see a huge lawsuit coming.
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amother




Slategray
 

Post  Thu, May 21 2020, 9:34 pm
truthfully I am shocked at jews talking about jews "whining" to have a minyan

speechless

very sad

B"H shuls are able to open safely
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amother




Natural
 

Post  Thu, May 21 2020, 9:45 pm
cbsp wrote:
That's actually not the point. We're not discussing that the shuls were closed.

We're discussing why we're not overly enthusiastic with the way they're being opened. We absolutely should be given the autonomy to figure out our specific religious observances in a legal and safe manner.


I think it has been abundantly clear that many, many, many Americans don't make safe choices when given autonomy (or when they choose to practice autonomy despite the law). This puts those who do wish to make safe choices in a very difficult situation, as other people are effectively undermining those choices.
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