200 struggling businesses to open tomorrow in Brooklyn

southernbubby

Mon, May 25 2020, 9:54 pm

amother [ Wine ] wrote:

NYC doesn’t revolve around the Jewish community in Brooklyn. In my neck of the woods, not a single person will be heading to the Catskills, and only the extremely wealthy can afford vacation homes, not to mention taking off summers.

Will the same people who are crying that they cannot economically survive another day under Pause really be investing in summer homes, and eschewing employment when things open up? I’d be surprised.

The entire apparel industry is taking a hit because of the lost spring season.

amother

Denim

Mon, May 25 2020, 10:19 pm

fleetwood wrote:

I am a lawyer, and I've actually been studying up on con law recently. It seems to me based on Supreme Court precedent, that suing the state won't really work for these businesses. In any case, by the time the cases make it that far, everything will be open anyway .

One last thing,it's not narrowly tailored and that's exactly why the church or synagogue has no first amendment claim. Everyone is equally locked down, except for essential services. Your 4th amendment argument also doesn't really fly. The 10th amendment gives the state the right in this case,bolstered by Supreme Court precedent. Justice Scalia wrote a very strong opinion on this topic. I linked the case a few days ago.

I agree that cases are unlikely to get to the SC before its irrelevant but it's an interesting argument. I don't know that the TRO process is for the SC and if somehow someone could get there quickly by making an appeal directly to them. No idea how that works.

I think the definition of "essential" would be up for debate. Is a beach essential? CA opened beaches before churches. I think that the base of the argument would be that the state has no way of delineating what they're defining as essential and what is not essential. It seems kind of arbitrary. Grocery stores are essential, and target sells groceries but is it really a grocery store and therefore essential? If the state were really going to only limit it to essentials, they might have to cordon off all the non-essential parts of Target. Is Home Depot essential? I think that's a hard argument to make. Amazing savings is open where I am but not churches. Is amazing savings essential? I doubt it- it barely even sells food.
The 10th Amendment gives the states the rights, but it doesn't give them broad power to do whatever they want. The states explicitly do not have the right to restrict religious services more than other things.
I agree the 4th Amendment claim is a stretch. But I'd be interested to see someone try to make the argument.

amother

Gold

Mon, May 25 2020, 10:37 pm

southernbubby wrote:

Bars, bookstores, art, etc. Their community revolves around these venues.

That is stereotyping to say the least. There are more straight people who support the arts, go to bars and read than LBGT unless you are referring to specific gay bars - but there are more straight bars than gay bars. Smile

And the majority of LBGT people lead lifestyles that are similar to straight people especially since gay marriage has enabled them to normalize their relationships and surrogacy has provided gay men with the ability to have a family. By and large gay people's existence is just like that of straight people as they become older and start raising families. Very Happy

amother

Lavender

Mon, May 25 2020, 11:32 pm

amother [ Denim ] wrote:

Things that are open or closed has nothing to do with how essential it is but rather how essential it is PLUS the likelihood of spreading germs.

so a beach isnt very likely to spread germs so they open even though they are not essential. and a small mom and pop grocery shop is VERY likely to spread germs yet they were allowed to remain open because they sell essential items. Its BOTH factors.

amother

Lavender

Mon, May 25 2020, 11:35 pm

havnt read this whole thread but all I can say is whoever spearheaded this whole open Ny thing were pretty foolish. Up until now small stores have been taking private appointments, or offering curbside pickup. they found a way to service customers even without people walking in to the store. not ideal but better than nothing.
Now they totally ruined it for themselves and for all the other small stores quietly doing business. Now they wont be able to have any business at all.

amother

Azure

Tue, May 26 2020, 12:08 am

amother [ Lavender ] wrote:

This. Do people really not get it, or is continued outrage at perceived injustice helpful to their cause?

I kept hearing about the horror of crowded trains while shuls were closed - by people whose cleaning help used those trains to travel to their (clearly essential) jobs. Transportation for essential workers is also essential, because they can't get to work othereise and people might die of hunger (grocery workers) or Covid (healthcare workers).

I heard so many false equivalencies throughout. Yes it's unfair that large superstores get to sell clothes now and small stores don't. Those stores sell food in a different aisle; that's essential. Maybe we should make them close the clothes section, I don't know. But don't argue that anyone is out to discriminate against small stores.

Also, it's genuinely harder to SD in a small space. It's right there in the phrase: DISTANCE. If someone gets too close in a large store, I can probably back into a different aisle. There's nowhere to go in a tiny storefront.

amother

Denim

Tue, May 26 2020, 12:21 am

amother [ Lavender ] wrote:

I'm not talking about the science per se. I'm just looking at the legal case. I think it's a legitimate legal argument that if large stores like target can be opened with requirements like limiting the number of people and appropriate spacing, then churches can be opened if they don't allow sgingin and require appropriate space between seats. Since anything restricting religion has to pass a strict scrutiny test (it must be narrowly tailored to achieve a compelling state interest and must be the least restrictive means to achieve that interest), I think churches could make the argument that the orders are not narrowly tailored enough and that churches could be open with no singing and space between seats.

I don't care at all on a personal level if churches or shuls open, I am only talking about the legal argument for why some parts of the orders are unconstitutional.

amother

Wine

Tue, May 26 2020, 12:22 am

fleetwood wrote:

If I wasn't clear. I'll explain it better tomorrow. Too tired to be coherent right now. Good night everyone.

It was pretty clear.

The Texas case held that the order lacked specificity. Because businesses could not be expected to understand what was, or was not, allowed, and also because there was no process to contest an arrest, it was found to violate the STATE, not federal, constitution. However, by time the decision was handed down, the deficiencies were corrected, and the shut down order stands.

The other case was a temporary restraining order in state court. The state removed the case to federal court, claiming that it involved federal constitutional questions. The 7th Circuit, governing that state, has already denied a federal constitutional challenge to the state action. The plaintiff claims that it’s claims have nothing to do with the US constitution.

southernbubby

Tue, May 26 2020, 12:27 am

amother [ Gold ] wrote:

I am talking specifically about gay owned businesses that are considered "safe spaces" for gay people. There are gay bars and bookstores and I have seen gay art so I would imagine that there are gay art galleries in NY. Apparently many gays shop at these places but gay bars have become less popular to gays because straight people go there.

Mama Bear

Tue, May 26 2020, 12:33 am

amother [ Wine ] wrote:

The Wmsbg and BP stores that are trying to open now, are missing the season if they can't make sales in June.

and the ppl who are going to the catskills are either going to summer homes they already own. or theyre renting a ramshackle delapidated non-winterized bungalow somewhere just so their kids can run around free on the grass since there's no daycamps or open playground in the city and there's nothing to do all summer.

southernbubby

Tue, May 26 2020, 12:34 am

amother [ Azure ] wrote:

If square footage was what made a store safe, why couldn't the rules state that there could be a certain amount of customers per square foot?
Apple Drugs in Crown Heights was only allowing 3 people in at a time, due to the size of the store. Why couldn't the gift shop do the same thing?

amother

Azure

Tue, May 26 2020, 12:46 am

southernbubby wrote:

That should probably be the rule in the reopening retail phase, as well as in shuls and schools.

amother

Slateblue

Tue, May 26 2020, 5:27 pm

Mama Bear wrote:

Update: I got my tights today. Stores are back open for the most part. Not all, and some are super scared and serving ppl at their door (therefore the streets are mobbed with ppl....) but I got my tights. you can all relax Very Happy

I was on the street today in willi . Literally can't walk ! Its a mob scene especially that all the kids are out too. Bh the stores r "open" and I got what I needed

southernbubby

Tue, May 26 2020, 5:55 pm

Mama Bear wrote:

Wow, that's good news! What a relief! It's also nice to know that the stores are doing business and hopefully can sell their spring lines before having to bring in the fall stuff. Maybe NY won't be home for the rats after all.