S/O separate dancing

giselle

Sun, May 24 2020, 5:07 pm

Hillery wrote:

OK, I won't continue. But I will point out that in your OP you didn't just ask whether it happens. You also said it was lovely. Which implies it's permitted.

My parents are very against the concept of mitzva tantz and think it goes against the Torah. My guess is that you have a mitzva tantz because you’re chasidish. Things aren’t always so black and white. Just because this isn’t the way you do things doesn’t mean that it’s not ok. And just because you do something doesn’t mean that it is ok according to everyone.

Einikel

Sun, May 24 2020, 5:09 pm

giselle wrote:

I genuinely want to know, which part of mitzva tantz do they think is against Halacha?

amother

Ruby

Sun, May 24 2020, 10:42 pm

Einikel wrote:

I genuinely want to know, which part of mitzva tantz do they think is against Halacha?

Did gisselle say halacha? I don't have patience to go back and read the exact wording, but its very easy for me, a chassidish woman who has a mitzvah tantz, to see why outsiders would be against it.
You have so many unrelated families sitting together at what is supposed to be a highly emotional event, with everyone in their wedding finest, no less.
Especially if there are jokes. There are issurim against unrelated men and women sharing a joke.
ETA. I am NOT saying that a mitvah tantz is wrong at all. This is a sacred minhag I am more than happy to keep, and I did discuss the topic with my brother and DH who were able to explain it very well to me.
We've also had mitzvah tantz in the family, even where only one side is chassidish and the other side was totally fine with it.
All I am saying is why non-chassidish ppl might find issues with it.

Einikel

Sun, May 24 2020, 10:45 pm

amother [ Ruby ] wrote:

Men and women don’t sit together. They are on 2 opposite ends of the hall.

amother

Ruby

Sun, May 24 2020, 10:56 pm

Einikel wrote:

Men and women don’t sit together. They are on 2 opposite ends of the hall.

With a mechitza?
Do they laugh at the same jokes?
Do the men have the opportunity to see women in their finest?
Does a halachically strange guy dance with a halachically strange woman? Even though its a gartel, still not ok any other time.
Chosson kallah holding hands?
Look, I'm chassidish, and I have mitzvah tantz.
I know that it's a very chashuv minhag and oisgehalten all the way. All I'm saying is that I can see why its not seen as right by others who are looking in, especially if they don't even know why we have mitzva tantz in the first place.
(I edited a bit for clarity since some posters misunderstood, based on their comments.)

DrMom

Mon, May 25 2020, 12:04 am

I thought at a mitzvah tantz, the woman doesn’t actually dance; she just holds the gartel and each man dances in turn. I don't know of and halacha against watching a man dance.

Maybe we are talking about two different things?

And what is the problem being seen in nice clothing, assuming it is tznua clothing?

Just correcting a typo:

I had originally written "garter" instead of "gartel," in which case, I can see how this would be a tzius issue if she was wearing the garter at the time.

Last edited by DrMom on Mon, May 25 2020, 2:40 am; edited 2 times in total

Einikel

Mon, May 25 2020, 12:10 am

DrMom wrote:

I thought at a mitzvah tantz, the woman doesn’t actually dance; she just holds the garter and each man dances in turn. I don't know of and halacha against watching a man dance.

Maybe we are talking about two different things?

And what is the problem being seen in nice clothing, assuming it is tznua clothing?

Thank you that’s why I was wondering why someone would say it’s against the Torah.

CiCi

Mon, May 25 2020, 1:23 am

amother [ Ruby ] wrote:

By us the women sit on one side and the men on the other. And the badchan jokes. Are you saying that is against halacha? Because it's not.

amother

Wheat

Mon, May 25 2020, 1:38 am

I'm Lubavitch, my cousins are Chassidish.

Although some Lubavitch families I've seen have the "family dance" where the father comes to dance with his daughter, we never did. I was pretty surprised the first time I saw it, although the idea of it is very sweet, I don't know why it required a huge audience. Couldn't they have done the dance privately when they did family photos?

At my cousin's wedding, I saw my first mitzvah tantz. It definitely shocked me, even with a gartel it felt like a pretty intimate connection, and when they actually held hands I was REALLY surprised, we go so far to never display affection in public and here they are "dancing" together (of course just walking back and forth, but it still looked like a big deal).

I know it's their minhag, but it was certainly no less surprising than when I saw my first "family dance," and even more.

I was also VERY happy that we don't have this minhag when I had a chuppas niddah, I can't imagine how humiliating that would have been for my cousin. At a Lubavitch wedding there is no visible difference to anyone except for the Rav (who makes sure the yichud room isn't actually locked).

CiCi

Mon, May 25 2020, 2:12 am

amother [ Wheat ] wrote:

I'm curious to know why Lubavitchers do not do the mitzvah tantz. Maybe you would know the answer to this. If Lubavitch is technically a Chassidus and all Chassidusen have the mitzvah tantz why does Chabad not have this minhig? Prior to the Holocaust they were just like any other Chassidus. Certainly like the Russian (Skvere) and Ukrainian (Chernobyl, Breslov) Chassidus that also do the mitzva tantz. So why doesn't Lubavitch have that minhug? Did Lubavitch have this minhag in Russia?

amother

cornflower

Mon, May 25 2020, 2:26 am

I’m also Chabad and while some families will all dance together, just the family. So chasons family will dance together and the Kallahs family will dance together. But I’ve never seen both sides dance together, can’t imagine how that’s appropriate.
My family doesn’t do Any mixed dancing as my father is not a fan.

amother

Wheat

Mon, May 25 2020, 2:28 am

CiCi wrote:

http://stumptherabbi.org/what-.....o-it/
The Rebbe says that because of Yeridas Hadoros, what was once a beautiful and beloved minhag based on Kabbalah now can bring to problems in tznius.

CiCi

Mon, May 25 2020, 2:40 am

amother [ Wheat ] wrote:

http://stumptherabbi.org/what-is-the-source-of-the-minhag-of-the-mitzvah-tanz-and-why-does-chabad-not-do-it/
The Rebbe says that because of Yeridas Hadoros, what was once a beautiful and beloved minhag based on Kabbalah now can bring to problems in tznius.

Thank you!

amother

Pewter

Mon, May 25 2020, 9:10 am

I have seen a "proper" mitzvah tantz, where the kallah holds the gartel and doesnt dance and only the immediate of her like father grandfather chassan hold it & dance, then I have also seen the kind where both sides and kallah all dance together women too, it seems completely not to the standards of normal every day life that is kept, which people like me who are not chassidish can find very shocking and taken aback. If Lwmo did it I would not be shocked. It just seems like it isnt in the other peoples standards at all.

gamanit

Mon, May 25 2020, 11:57 am

amother [ Plum ] wrote:

I think its lovely, and I wish I would have the opportunity. Why can't the mother of boys dance with her own son at his wedding? I'm chassidish and we have a mitzvah tanz, so the father of the girl gets to dance with his daughter, but the mother is denied the chance to dance with her own son. I personally find this very upsetting.

And I don't see what's wrong if parents and their kids dance together on the women's side of the hall. There are no men around to see the women dancing, and the immediate family is allowed to dance together.

The chosson isn't allowed to see other women dancing either.

Chayalle

Mon, May 25 2020, 12:05 pm

amother [ Orchid ] wrote:

My husband’s family, Lakewood, did this at a couple of weddings, but some yeshivish meddlers got very angry. They only did it with one side though, so it was only family dancing together.

My DH would hit the roof if anyone did this at any of my DD's weddings.