Mandatory Covid Vaccine

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Forum -> Children's Health -> Vaccinations

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OutofTown Girl

Tue, May 26 2020, 4:07 pm

amother [ Plum ] wrote:

You are looking at this so one sided, this is laughable to me.

I do know that the Torah can be explained in 70 ways. Please tell me your rav's explanation of the halachic concept of "dash bo rabim".

amother

cornflower

Tue, May 26 2020, 4:09 pm

amother [ Teal ] wrote:

I dont remember where the article was listing the fine intracacies CA makes you have to finally qualify for an ME. But reasonable it is not at all. I clearly remember that having ana "only" or 2 times wasnt good enough for a permanent ME.

Somebody else might be able to show an article on this.

All I know in such a case religion does not allow yet law requires.

One of my kids had bad reactions like that at the allergist while undergoing desensitization. It is NOT something I would do again, ever, ever, ever. After the 3rd one it will never be up for discussion again. Nor will anyone force me to give penicillin again because that went terriby badly too.

CA and NY are the only 2 states this really is the worst in and are good as example states.

Thing is, it is true, I have heard enough irl cases there are lots of people who should rightfully have ME's do not. If the law was reasonable there wouldn't be activism associated with it or a movement.

And then there would be none of this pro/anti fighting. If everyone would help pressure for ME 's to be given reasonably, I think all this would simply go away.

I think any ana reaction after a shot should exempt that child from that shot permanently, and qualify for a delayed schedule. And after a second ana, from all vaccines. I think it is DISGUSTING that law puts parents in a position to risk the childs life AGAIN.

Vaccines are great for most of us. I think fixing the ME to be reasonable is a good solution. The case above about the blue baby is typical, not an exception.

If I didnt know how unjust and unethical it was to get an ME from hearing cases irl, I wouldn't have known it either.

How do you propose proper use of MEs should be enforced, and what should be the punishment for parents who pay doctors for fake MEs and doctors who take money and write illegitimate MEs?

BTW your statement that "If the law was reasonable there wouldn't be activism associated with it or a movement" is not true. There is a lot of money behind the movement and the activism is not fueled simply by the requirement to vaccinate (in many states exemptions are easy to get, some countries don't have a requirement at all but there is still lots of activism).

amother

Plum

Tue, May 26 2020, 4:09 pm

OutofTown Girl wrote:

I don't have a monopoly on appropriate hishtadlus; halacha does. "Dash bo rabim" is not my invention - it's the halachic principle to determine whether actions are deemed safe (and thereby appropriate hishtadlus).

Do you drive a car? Would you get a root canal if you needed one? A [necessary] elective surgery? Those have risks of adverse effects too.

I'm curious how you interpret the halachic concept of dash bo rabim as the opposite of what I've said.

All I'm pointing out is that you are putting Yiddishkeit as belonging to your paraphrased understanding of 2 gedolim.
That is not how Yiddishkeit works.

amother

cornflower

Tue, May 26 2020, 4:11 pm

amother [ Plum ] wrote:

A system is meant to be better than the people it governs.
And if it isn't, it is broke.

The system is made by the people. The people, in this case, are morally bankrupt. Therefore, so is the system. While it didn't start out that way, the abuse and the responses to that abuse have, as you said, made the system broke.

You will never have a system that is better than the quality of its components or inventors. Sorry.

OutofTown Girl

Tue, May 26 2020, 6:14 pm

amother [ Plum ] wrote:

All I'm pointing out is that you are putting Yiddishkeit as belonging to your paraphrased understanding of 2 gedolim.
That is not how Yiddishkeit works.

The concept of "dash bo rabim" has been around since the times of the Shulchan Aruch, it's hardly an invention of Rav Elyashiv's. I happened to have read tshuvos concerning medicine, with the mention of vaccines, by these two poskim, so I mentioned their names. But this is an age-old fundamental concept which I believe is accepted in all streams of Judaism that follow the Shulchan Aruch.

(As an aside, Rav Zilbershtein is an expert on medical halacha and is widely respected on this topic in EY and beyond. As for Rav Elyashiv - I don't need to explain to you what posek hador means.)

#BestBubby

Tue, May 26 2020, 7:48 pm

banana123 wrote:

Whatever the report said, that statement is simply not true. Autism rates are similar in the vaccinated and unvaccinated populations.

How would you know? Is there a Vax vs UnVax Study comparing autism rates?

#BestBubby

Tue, May 26 2020, 8:07 pm

OutofTown Girl wrote:

#BestBubby, I was warned not to engage with you, but now that you've brought up religion and vaccines, I would ask you to read what I wrote in another thread: https://www.imamother.com/foru.....56735

I explained why for frum Jews, the small risk inherent to vaccination is not a reason not vaccinate [healthy] children. Refraining for fear of a statistically miniscule risk means that you don't believe that Hashem controls outcomes and you need only to do appropriate hishtadlus.

Further along the thread, I mentioned that of course, children who have a known* high risk of adverse reactions should absolutely NOT be vaccinated. It would be absolutely negligent and the opposite of hishtadlus to vaccinate such a child. If a medical exemption cannot be obtained, due to flawed regulations, a parent would still be obligated to refuse the vaccine, as hard as it might be to get their child into school.

*If you don't know before vaccinating that your child is at risk for an adverse reaction, and he does wind up ch"v with a vaccine-related injury, you have done your appropriate hishtadlus and Hashem has decreed this misfortune upon your child.

This is a perfectly valid position.

But there are mothers (jewish and not) whose child had a bad re-action or WAS injured and don't want to vaccinate that child or their siblings - those parents are denied medical exemptions, their doctors are too afraid to even write one. And even if they do, the government can over-rule the doctor and deny.

There are also mothers who know someone whose child was vaccine injured, did a lot of research and decided that vaccines are too risky. There are Rabbonim who agree with this position.
Those parents are denied the right to make medical decisions for their children.

If GOVERNMENT has "custody" of our children and makes medical decisions for them then government can decide that Bris Milah is Child abuse and Yeshiva Education is Neglect.
There have already been attempts in that direction so even pro-vaxxers should protect their
RELIGIOUS RIGHTS and PARENTAL RIGHTS of everyone (Including anti-vaxxers).

#BestBubby

Tue, May 26 2020, 8:10 pm

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

It didn't used to be that way. It became like that because the exemptions were abused.

No it became that way because GOVERNMENT is ABUSIVE.

ONLY PARENTS get to make medical decisions for THEIR Child.

We are not GOVERNMENT PROPERTY or else we are SLAVES!

amother

Floralwhite

Tue, May 26 2020, 8:17 pm

gold21 wrote:

Please stop referencing the religious exemption. This has nothing to do with religion. If you want our participation, be straight with us. When misrepresentation of an issue is this transparent, it isn't going to get me excited about it. Please be straight with us and don't conflate vaccines with bris milah. Thanks.

This is Against religion! Religion calls for Pikuach Nefesh. Not taking a vaccine is endangering yourself and others

#BestBubby

Tue, May 26 2020, 8:29 pm

amother [ Floralwhite ] wrote:

This is Against religion! Religion calls for Pikuach Nefesh. Not taking a vaccine is endangering yourself and others

How many unvaxxed children die from a vaccine preventable disease in USA per year?

ZERO

How many vaxxed children die following vaccination in USA per year?

About 400 children per year.

In addition on the vaccine inserts it say the following is reported following vaccination:

SIDS, autism, fevers, seizures, diabetes, epilepsy, encephalopathy (can cause permanent brain damage), Guillem-Barre Syndrome (like polio), etc.

amother

Pumpkin

Tue, May 26 2020, 8:31 pm

amother [ Floralwhite ] wrote:

This is Against religion! Religion calls for Pikuach Nefesh. Not taking a vaccine is endangering yourself and others

It's really not so black and white. You obviously haven't read this thread because you don't sound well-versed in this controversial topic.

amother

Pewter

Tue, May 26 2020, 8:35 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

unvaxxed children most definitely die of VPD every year such as rotovirus, HIB, pertussis etc. there is a brain damaged child in Monsey from the Measles. What are you talking about? Still believe in the right to choose BTW

amother

Floralwhite

Tue, May 26 2020, 8:37 pm

amother [ Pumpkin ] wrote:

It's really not so black and white. You obviously haven't read this thread because you don't sound well-versed in this controversial topic.

Can you explain how the Jewish religion would be in favor of people not taking care of themselves? My Rabbi and all the Rabbis I heard are always saying that Pikuach Nefesh over rides Shabbat! My Rabbi is not allowing people over 60 or anyone else with an underlying risk factor to join a Socially Distanced outdoor minyan with 10 people. I respect that.

OutofTown Girl

Tue, May 26 2020, 8:38 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

I certainly agree with you about that first point. If my child were to have a vaccine-related injury (ch"v), it is a travesty that I would not be able to get a medical exemption for future vaccinations. Halachically I would actually not be allowed to continue vaccinating the child. You are right that in this case, where government overrules medical advice, we have a serious problem, and the medical exemption guidelines must be fixed.

I take issue with the second point. Unfortunately, vaccine-related injuries do exist. However, if my child is healthy, in accordance with the concept of "dash bo rabim" (something that most do safely is not considered dangerous), I can go ahead and vaccinate knowing that I did the appropriate hishtadlus. If my child were to ch"v be injured, that is what Hashem willed. It was not caused by the vaccine. If I believe that the vaccine caused the injury, that is a lack of bitachon and of recognizing that Hashem runs the world.

I don't want to repeat everything I wrote there on the other thread, if you had a chance to look at it. Suffice to say, I wonder why parents are even researching the reports of the statistically rare vaccine-related injuries (if their child has no known risk factors). That is not our halachic obligation - we are obligated to follow the advice of the majority of medical experts. There is no such thing as "doing extra hishtadlus" - once you overstep the bounds and do too much research into rare vaccine-related injury, you're showing that even the "allowable" amount of hishtadlus (I.e. speaking to your doctor and ascertaining that risk of adverse effects is low) was not done to satisfy the hishtadlus "quota" mandated by halacha, but because you really don't believe that Hashem is running the world.

amother

Floralwhite

Tue, May 26 2020, 8:45 pm

OutofTown Girl wrote:

[quote
I like that spin! This is logical and down to earth.

OutofTown Girl

Tue, May 26 2020, 9:05 pm

amother [ Floralwhite ] wrote:

[quote
I like that spin! This is logical and down to earth.

Thanks. I wish I could claim the credit for it. Smile

I've read numerous tshuvos (halachic responsa) on the topics of hishtadlus pertaining to areas of medicine and safety. I also once listened to a shiur by Rabbi Akiva Tatz where he explained that last point really well. I try to apply this to my life in many areas aside from vaccinations (which generally don't play a major role in my life).

amother

Purple

Tue, May 26 2020, 9:38 pm

amother [ Teal ] wrote:

Okay, I will explain the real need for the exsistence of the RE as relates to Judaism. A clear example.

Little 4 year old child has anaphalactic reaction from vaccine. Dr delays next booster. Time to enroll in school. A year and a half has passed. They carefully try the next booster in the office with all precautions. Child has another ana reaction. B"h survives it. Now child is due for next booster in grade 6. Dr reccomends they carefully try it again. Many years have passed. Parents very worried. Consult Rabbi, rabbi is easy going about things and feels vaccines are accepted medical of time and actually agrees its okay to try (now would he really according to halacha? Idk) Rabbi says if your Dr feels it is okay. So they try it. Another ana reaction. Guess what in the State of California this kid still cannot qualify for a medical exemption. No Rabbi under the sun after 3 ana's will permit a vaccine again. So this kid cannot go to HS. Has to homeschool. Cant have a regular rebbe, a chavrusa. A social life. Why??? Because Religious exemption was taken away. And to qualify for a medical exemption without basically being in middle of chemo is very rare. They penalize Dr s for giving them. They even put a govt agent above the Drs to check they dont give them too much. Including for really bad cases like the fake one I used.

It is a tragedy for real for some people that it was removed. There is true unexaggerated need for it, legit. Now the whole 1000% against or pro crowds dont like to hear reality is in the middle of all the extremism. But it is.

Gd forbid but how many anaphalatic incidences would it take for you to say no more? For most people it is less than governmental requirements.

This would warrant a MEDICAL exemption. No religious exemption needed.

amother

Purple

Tue, May 26 2020, 9:40 pm

A canadian relative of mine was shocked that there is such a thing as "religious exemption" for immunization. It has nothing to do with religion. YOu want to quote Venishmartem ma'od lenafsheseichem. Research how many child death there was before immunization existed.

#BestBubby

Tue, May 26 2020, 9:41 pm

amother [ Purple ] wrote:

This would warrant a MEDICAL exemption. No religious exemption needed.

But the mother cannot get a medical exemption. The government threatens and intimidates
doctors not to write any medical exemptions.

Are you okay with that?

amother

Purple

Tue, May 26 2020, 9:43 pm

BTW your local politicians are against removing religious exemption, bec. they're afraid of the chaos that would ensue. Afraid yeshivas will continue to accept unimmunized children, and y'know they're basically the religious institutions puppets due to block votes and quid pro quo.

Measles is not a joke.

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