Mandatory Covid Vaccine

amother

Pumpkin

Tue, May 26 2020, 3:08 pm

Let me tell you about my friend. I've posted about her a number of times. She's a prime example of tyranny and unreasonable law.

Her DD 6 months old was found blue in the crib the night after getting shots at her well-visit. Thankfully Hatzalah saved her. She was hospitalized for 24 hours. At 9 months mom wanted to push off shots and doc assured her that he's going to administer different shot so no need to worry. That night she hovered over baby's crib and suddenly found her turning blue and again Hatzalah was called and she was taken to the hospital.

Now BH she's alive, right? Well, doc said these incidents are coincidental and would not give her a ME. This mom is right in not attempting to give this kid more shots. But this kid cannot go to school. And if mom wants to protect the rest of her children who haven't exhibited such reactions, does she have to possibly expose herself to the fear of killing her own child? Shouldn't siblings of such a severe reaction also be entitled, to at least , push off? Not according to state law.

Her DH is in kollel and she works. How is she meant to homeschool??? And why should she have to???

ETA: She switched doctors. The current doctor told my friend in August that really this kid deserves a ME, but she won't write one because the DOH will look after her and she can't put herself out there like that. She feels bad but there's nothing she can do. She told her to hire a lawyer. Banging head

amother

cornflower

Tue, May 26 2020, 3:13 pm

amother [ Indigo ] wrote:

Okay - I don't know how this is a response to my post.

The vaccination program is set up with the goal of reaching a high level of participation.. Making vaccination mandatory for school admission is a very useful tool to achieve that goal within the framework of what is legal in the US.

That is correct, and since most parents prefer to send to school, and most parents aren't anti-vax, they give the vaccinations.

However, that does not mean that the choice not to vaccinate does not exist, and it does not mean that it's okay to insist on the right not to vaccinate while refusing to take responsibility for what that decision entails.

amother

Plum

Tue, May 26 2020, 3:13 pm

amother [ Pumpkin ] wrote:

So sad.
My question is why she gave the 2nd shot at 9 months? The child was in daycare where its mandated?

amother

cornflower

Tue, May 26 2020, 3:18 pm

amother [ Pumpkin ] wrote:

Like the current doc said, this kid needs an exemption. No question about it. BH he is alive.

About the siblings, I don't know. But the child himself certainly needs a medical exemption. But not only does the child need a medical exemption - it's important, crucial, to understand that the reason DoH will go after the doctor if she writes an exemption, and the reason the other doctor wouldn't write one, is because these exemptions are so abused.

I guarantee you, if the only people asking for exemptions were people like your friend, they would be available easily.

But there are so many parents abusing the exemptions and paying doctors to blatantly lie, that DoH is now fed up and cracking down, and doctors are afraid to be placed under a magnifying glass and get in trouble.

And it is all the fault of the people who lied and abused the exemptions, thinking they have a right to do it.

BTW it may be that the vaccine caused the reaction but please urge your friend to do extensive tests on that child, because such an abnormal reaction may surface later as the result of a different trigger, and she needs to know what those triggers are and what other issues the child may have that haven't yet surfaced.

amother

Pumpkin

Tue, May 26 2020, 3:20 pm

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

All good and well, but she's the one who's stuck now. With no place to turn to. She was using a RE until this year, claiming that her religion doesn't allow her to place her child in harm's way.

amother

Plum

Tue, May 26 2020, 3:29 pm

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

And the fault is shared by the system which prompts people to lie, and the people who lie.

amother

Indigo

Tue, May 26 2020, 3:31 pm

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

What people want is the ability to make a choice that doesn't back them into a corner. Like the same way a person can go to a grocery store with a dollar in their pocket an choose from 3 types of apples or not to purchase an apple at all.

Anti-vaxxers are dishonest when they claim they have 'no choice' but so are defenders of the currently policy when they say 'sure there is a choice'.

OutofTown Girl

Tue, May 26 2020, 3:46 pm

amother [ Plum ] wrote:

I read that. Apparently you aren't aware of the moral, religious, and health related concerns many parents who don't vaccinate have. To me it seems like you're repeating jargon or pat answers.
And you don't address the small risk of vaccine injury vs small risk disease injury.

In which way did I not address religious concerns? Doing appropriate hishtadlus - no more and no less - is THE Jewish concern when it comes to medicine and safety.

I'm not sure what you're referring to by moral concerns. Moral, for frum Jews, is living a halachic life, doing appropriate hishtadlus, and leaving the rest to Hashem. Moral means not believing that the world is governed by chance and that you alone can protect your children from every risk.

I directly addressed health-related concerns. Hashem is the guardian of your child's health. He expects you to do appropriate hishtadlus (so as not to perform obvious miracles). This means to follow mainstream medical opinion. That means not to research every online study and look into every possible reaction. Doing so would show that you believe your medical knowledge alone is protecting your child.
(If by health-related concerns, you're referring to a specific child who has risk factors, see my first post in this thread.)

I'm not repeating jargon or pat answers. I'm quoting Rav Elyashiv, and I've seen the same written by Rav Zilbershtein and others.

In the larger world, there are many "moral, religious, and health-related" reasons to be pro- or anti-vaccination. But frum people believe in Hashem, and do only the necessary hishtadlus.

amother

Pumpkin

Tue, May 26 2020, 3:50 pm

OutofTown Girl wrote:

In which way did I not address religious concerns? Doing appropriate hishtadlus - no more and no less - is THE Jewish concern when it comes to medicine and safety.

I'm not sure what you're referring to by moral or health related. Moral, for frum Jews, is living a halachic life, doing appropriate hishtadlus, and leaving the rest to Hashem. Moral means not believing that the world is governed by chance and that you alone can protect your children from every risk.

I directly addressed health-related concerns. Hashem is the guardian of your child's health. He expects you to do appropriate hishtadlus (so as not to perform obvious miracles). This means to follow mainstream medical opinion. That means not to research every online study and look into every possible reaction. Doing so would show that you believe your medical knowledge alone is protecting your child.
(If by health-related concerns, you're referring to a specific child who has risk factors, see my first post in this thread.)

I'm not repeating jargon or pat answers. I'm quoting Rav Elyashiv, and I've seen the same written by Rav Zilbershtein and others.

In the larger world, there are many "moral, religious, and health-related" reasons to be pro- or anti-vaccination. But frum people believe in Hashem, and do only the necessary hishtadlus.

Honestly you sound like another poster who insists that her interpretation of halacha is THE only one. Especially with something as heated with extensive far reaching effects like vaccinations, there are multiple halachic opinions on this, and it's beyond the pale for you to insist otherwise.

amother

cornflower

Tue, May 26 2020, 3:55 pm

amother [ Indigo ] wrote:

What people want is to be able to do what they want without having to deal with the consequences.

Going to the grocery store and choosing to buy an apple is not a lifestyle decision or something that has long-term effects on anything.

To vax or not to vax is a decision which has lifelong effects.

I don't love the current policy because I think it unfairly punishes those who truly need exemptions, and doesn't do enough to punish those who abused they system in the first place. Dishonest people should be punished, especially when their entitlement puts others at risk.

There is, however, a choice, even if it's not so convenient for everyone who doesn't want to vaccinate.

The same goes for every other life decision: to do a degree or not, when to have children, where to live, etc.

amother

Plum

Tue, May 26 2020, 3:59 pm

OutofTown Girl wrote:

You are looking at this so one sided, this is laughable to me.
You wrote: Doing appropriate hishtadlus - no more and no less - is THE Jewish concern when it comes to medicine and safety.
You do not have the monopoly on what is considered appropriate hishtadlus.
You wrote:
That means not to research every online study and look into every possible reaction.
Who is talking about online studies? Read the insert. I do that for many medications. I had one instance (not vaccine related) where the doctor actually pulled back his advice after giving me a prescription because I questioned him about something on the insert.
You wrote:
Doing so would show that you believe your medical knowledge alone is protecting your child.
To me, this means using the practical and halachic knowledge Hashem gave me.
You haven't quoted Rav Elyashiv and Rav Zilbershtein: You have repeated words about an instance where they responded to a specific question at a specific time. And while they are true gedolim with vast Torah knowledge, my rav doesn't pasken like them in many matters. (Like, do you know what Rav Elysashiv z"l held about the bracha for grape juice?)
My rav specifically did not say that. He blessed whichever direction was taken.
Whatever, I can go on and on. I'm not interested in dissecting your post more than I have. I'm just pointing out that you're being very black and white because this is how you want to see it. Everything you've written can be interpreted the opposite.

amother

cornflower

Tue, May 26 2020, 3:59 pm

amother [ Plum ] wrote:

And the fault is shared by the system which prompts people to lie, and the people who lie.

The system certainly isn't faultless - no system is - but when something is abused, especially when it is systematically abused - then the bulk of the blame rests with them.

Sorry for the comparison, but it's like the women who claim metoo to get attention or to ruin someone's life, who make the next metoo story less believable and credible, even if the next story is legitimate and that person really is a victim.

And like people who lie in order to get welfare, and then those who truly need welfare funds have to go through a months-long vetting process and undergo scrutiny and report every two weeks or month to the authorities about every penny they earned.

Every person who lies to the system and to the public makes things worse for the true victims, for those who really need it.

What's maddening is that when there is legitimately a life at stake, the person can't get help because of all the entitled liars who ruined it for them. How dare they.

OutofTown Girl

Tue, May 26 2020, 4:00 pm

amother [ Pumpkin ] wrote:

If you read my post in the other thread, the principle of "dash bo rabim" is applied halachically across the board in areas of medicine and safety. It's not limited to vaccines.

I'm curious if you can give me the name of a leading rav who believes that vaccinating children is indeed considered a chisaron hishtadlus (negligence) due to the small risk of adverse effects? Would he pasken this way regarding elective surgery, or for that matter, driving a car or crossing the street?

amother

Teal

Tue, May 26 2020, 4:05 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

If your doctor refuses to grant a medical exemption in the event of multiple anaphylactic reactions, please change doctors.

California permits medical exemptions to vaccination, and does not limit them to chemo. A doctor may write as many exemptions as are medically appropriate under accepted medical procedure. California has, however, attempted to crack down on unscrupulous quacks who grant medical exemptions because the parents just don't want to vaccinate, which is not their purpose. They have begun reviewing exemptions written by doctors who write more than a few a year. But if they're valid, they're valid. There's even a review procedure.

I haven't read anything about abuse where the state has required children with anaphylactic reactions to vaccinate. That would be wrong. Can you cite the newspaper articles discussing this?

I dont remember where the article was listing the fine intracacies CA makes you have to finally qualify for an ME. But reasonable it is not at all. I clearly remember that having ana "only" or 2 times wasnt good enough for a permanent ME.

Somebody else might be able to show an article on this.

All I know in such a case religion does not allow yet law requires.

One of my kids had bad reactions like that at the allergist while undergoing desensitization. It is NOT something I would do again, ever, ever, ever. After the 3rd one it will never be up for discussion again. Nor will anyone force me to give penicillin again because that went terriby badly too.

CA and NY are the only 2 states this really is the worst in and are good as example states.

Thing is, it is true, I have heard enough irl cases there are lots of people who should rightfully have ME's do not. If the law was reasonable there wouldn't be activism associated with it or a movement.

And then there would be none of this pro/anti fighting. If everyone would help pressure for ME 's to be given reasonably, I think all this would simply go away.

I think any ana reaction after a shot should exempt that child from that shot permanently, and qualify for a delayed schedule. And after a second ana, from all vaccines. I think it is DISGUSTING that law puts parents in a position to risk the childs life AGAIN.

Vaccines are great for most of us. I think fixing the ME to be reasonable is a good solution. The case above about the blue baby is typical, not an exception.

If I didnt know how unjust and unethical it was to get an ME from hearing cases irl, I wouldn't have known it either.

OutofTown Girl

Tue, May 26 2020, 4:06 pm

amother [ Plum ] wrote:

I don't have a monopoly on appropriate hishtadlus; halacha does. "Dash bo rabim" is not my invention - it's the halachic principle to determine whether actions are deemed safe (and thereby appropriate hishtadlus).

Do you drive a car? Would you get a root canal if you needed one? A [necessary] elective surgery? Those have risks of adverse effects too.

I'm curious how you interpret the halachic concept of dash bo rabim as the opposite of what I've said.

amother

Plum

Tue, May 26 2020, 4:06 pm

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

A system is meant to be better than the people it governs.
And if it isn't, it is broke.