Halacha and danger vs parnasa

amother

Mon, May 25 2020, 2:58 am

I haven't really seen this angle discussed specifically, if I missed something please point me in the right direction!

I know there's a lot of feeling that halacha places human life as paramount, so any risk is unconscionable.

On one hand that is true, on the other, halacha provides for people undertaking risky activities for parnasa purposes, like sailing on ships and traveling through dangerous areas, both which necessitate a birchas Hagomel for getting through safely.

Would this not have some bearing on businesses opening now?

Ora in town

Mon, May 25 2020, 3:45 am

Dina de malchuta dina.
So anyways you should not do it if it's not allowed.
And we want to hope that if it's allowed, there is a safe way for you to do it.
Because the authorities don't take all those measures because they are dictatorial, but because they want to protect us, you, the inhabitants...

Of course, there is still a little difference in perspective between you as a person and the authorities, because the authorities mainly want to bring the general numbers down, and can still accept a little spread, whereas you might want to avoid infection alltogether...

ora_43

Mon, May 25 2020, 7:07 am

It's an interesting question.

I can think of a few more factors (putting 'dina d'malchuta dina' aside):

- whether the business is dependent on being physically open, or whether it could operate using curbside pickup or similar. (and if so, to what extent? eg will half of customers only buy if the store is open, or only 20%?)

- whether it can be made reasonably safe, eg by limiting the number of people in the store at once, insisting on masks, etc. Or moving certain activities outdoors.

This issue is more complicated than a single individual deciding whether or not to endanger themselves for parnassa, because it has an impact on the whole kehila. If one person's boat crashes, that doesn't mean half the people at shul will also get in a boat crash.

OTOH, it's also not true AFAIK that any risk is a halachic issue. IIRC, it's a 1 in 100 risk that makes something officially dangerous. (but I'm not 100% sure on that)

So ultimately it would depend where and when and how. A store opening with safety measures in place, in an area where transmission of the virus is very low and hospitals have beds available? Probably OK. A store allowing in crowds of people, in an area where transmission is ongoing and the medical system is overwhelmed - probably not OK. (but I'm no rabbi, that's just my guess)

DrMom

Mon, May 25 2020, 7:34 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

It cannot possible be true that ANY risk is unconscionable.

Otherwise, we would be forbidden from commuting to work (you might, chas v'shalom, get into a car accident!), going on business trips (what if there's a plane crash?), making coffee in the break room (you might burn yourself!), etc.

The idea is to keep the risk low, but it will never be 0.

southernbubby

Mon, May 25 2020, 7:52 am

Ora in town wrote:

But keeping laws is one area of halacha and taking risks is another. A frum person is allowed to join the military or become a fire fighter but there are supposed to be safeguards in place to lower the risks involved in those activities.
A small business owner has to have alarms and cameras and maybe even a gun in case of an armed robbery.

DrMom

Mon, May 25 2020, 7:55 am

southernbubby wrote:

Okay...and there are safeguards in place now that allow people to work but which lower the risk of becoming infected with corona virus.

What are you trying to say?

Mothers

Mon, May 25 2020, 8:27 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Risking your own life for your parnassah may be different from causing a danger to others and risking others’ lives. A bor b’reshus harabim is not OK - even if it provides parnassah for the bor owner/creator.

southernbubby

Mon, May 25 2020, 9:45 am

naturalmom5 wrote:

http://thevoiceoflakewood.com/3dissue/050720/index.html

Page 64 is a very good article on this

It looks like this is saying that the current situation calls for opening up the economy. To a certain extent, that is what is happening, albeit at a measured pace so as not to be back at square one. OTOH, even though eventually everything will be open, it was a huge disruption to the economy that might take years to overcome.

amother

Pearl

Mon, May 25 2020, 9:55 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

No. Because someone who travels through dangerous areas is not risking other people's lives. And we understand that he does this out of necessity, and that he takes appropriate precautions, to the greatest extent possible, during his journeys.

Mah she'ein kein when discussing reopening businesses during a pandemic, where a) you are putting others' lives at risk in addition to your own, b) almost certainly proper precautions are not being taken, by either business owner or customers, c) even if the business owner takes precautions he cannot control his customers' behavior and probably cannot enforce the regulations, meaning he is oiver on lo siten michsol.

In addition there are uncomfortable but doable ways for people to be able to provide for their families even if they are not earning money at the moment. Among these are: applying for benefits, taking tzedaka, selling belongings, living a simpler lifestyle, "asei shabascha chol" making a very simple Shabbos and not buying niceties for yom tov etc. All of these are halachically preferable to opening up when lives are at risk.

#BestBubby

Mon, May 25 2020, 10:07 am

Ora in town wrote:

There are ulterior motives why DEMOCRATS are prolonging the shutdown and it is NOT
for "safety"

1. Trump created the best economy in 50 years and was assured of re-election. The Democrats hope that ruining the economy will defeat Trump.

In August 2019, Democrat Bill Maher actually said he was HOPING the economy would crash so Trump would lose!

2. Florida and Georgia re-opened retail stores weeks ago. The experts all warned that there would be a SPIKE in covid deaths but THERE WAS NO SPIKE - instead cases continue to GO DOWN. So there is NO REASON not to let people go back to work (with precautions like masks).

3. A person has a much greater risk of dying in a CAR CRASH than dying from covid.
So if you are allowed to ride in a car, you are allowed to go to work!

#BestBubby

Mon, May 25 2020, 10:13 am

amother [ Pearl ] wrote:

No. Because someone who travels through dangerous areas is not risking other people's lives.

Per your logic, Everybody would have to be in quarantine FOREVER because they might
infect the immunocompromised with the cold or flu or some other germ. COVID is not
the only virus - tens of thousands of Americans die from flu every year. Does that make
earning a living forbidden??? RIDICULOUS!

amother

Beige

Mon, May 25 2020, 11:17 am

#BestBubby wrote:

Actually from what I've read, there was a spike in cases in FL, GA, as well as other states that reopened. I'm really curious where you get your info from. Reading only extreme right wing news sources is just as bad as reading only extreme left wing news sources. You need a balanced approach to get to the truth.

And I don't know why you bring up "Democrat" Bill Maher. I believe he is actually an Independent and somewhat considers himself Libertarian. He isn't a politician, he is just a talk show host who likes to say provocative things so people watch his show. Quoting him isn't proof of anything. For starters, his first successful talk show that he had for many years was called "Politically Incorrect" which was all about inviting a group of diverse guests, saying something very provocative, getting them to respond then debating them. You know, kind of like imamother, lol. Eventually be said something that was too provocative, got fired from his show, then got hired elsewhere. He knows what his audience wants, and he delivers.
(BTW, he is halachically Jewish, though he doesn't identify as such but he is VERY pro Jewish and Israel. Always defends Israel. Very much pro Netanyahu. Puts down all religions but admits to a respect for Judaism. He is not a bad guy to have in our corner. He is not afraid to straight out call out Tlaib, Omar, etc as anti semitic. Look up videos of him calling them out on youtube, while his liberal guests are shocked and horrified, lol.)

ora_43

Mon, May 25 2020, 12:17 pm

OK so I was way off about the definition of makom sakana.

It comes down to מנהג עולם - what the average person does.

If the average person would recognize the situation as dangerous, it's makom sakana. If most people feel it's fine, then it's not considered makom sakana. Pregnancy is an example of the latter - there were plenty of places and times where it wasn't safe, but it's considered 'the way of the world' so no problems there.

Source

Other source (I'm not familiar with this writer, but he cites his sources)