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I'm tired of making the same argument over and over again!
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amother




OP
 

Post  Mon, May 25 2020, 4:06 pm
These are the facts:

Covid19 is a novel virus; we knew nothing about it before it hit our shores and are continuing to learn about it as it passes along.

Covid19 is extremely contagious.

Covid19 is in many cases fatal, especially to the retired sector of society and to those with underlying health issues or immunosurpressed.

So far so good, right?

Now here comes the shady part.

After exposure, you can show symptoms between 2-14 days, or remain asymptomatic.

You can have all symptoms or just some.

It is contagious by touch or not.

Masks help or not.

Social Distancing helps or not.

You can develop antibodies and either are immune for life or a short time.

There's a second wave coming, a spike is expected, you can get reinfected, or none.

So our cheder took the risk on the advice of our rebbe, and reopened right after Pesach. At first in smaller groups for few hours in basements with only younger melamdim. Then after 14 days of no spike, upped the groups, for longer hours. Once there was no spike and no new sick patients, cheder fully opened but without transportation.

So here's my question which I've asked in almost every thread and wasn't answered: Aside from the chilul Hashem issue, regarding the danger and rodef situation, over 5 weeks have passed, how does this not prove that the virus has passed over us? Why are posters still calling this reckless behavior and consider our boys to still be zooming or telelearning which is much much less efficient learning? We are arguing bittul torah over pikuach nefesh. It is totally safe here at this point.

Can anyone answer please?
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amother




Lavender
 

Post  Mon, May 25 2020, 4:12 pm
https://youtu.be/QLUDJlx5jEc
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amother




OP
 

Post  Mon, May 25 2020, 4:15 pm
amother [ Lavender ] wrote:
https://youtu.be/QLUDJlx5jEc

Just because people are dying now in Brazil, NY doesn't need to be locked down. And as long as our airports are open bringing in hordes of new people, the state is technically open anyway.
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amother




Blonde
 

Post  Mon, May 25 2020, 4:17 pm
I think what irks most people is the disregard for the law.

That said - maybe there is herd immunity at the school, maybe there is not. Meaning if one kid brings it in (yes the virus can reenter your community even if its 100% not there now) - the one kids can infect many.

But we are all likely going to be living with that reality at some future point - until the vaccine is here.
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ora_43




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, May 25 2020, 4:24 pm
Everyone is tired of making the same arguments over and over. We're not ignoring each other, we're talking past each other. Each convinced that what others are saying isn't a real answer.

Anyway. Short answer:

Covid19 is a novel virus, which makes it naive in the extreme to say that things are 'totally safe.' That doesn't mean we never reopen, but we reopen with the attitude of 'let's keep a careful eye on things,' not 'if it's been more than a month, that means it's over forever.'

Longer answer:

There's no way to know at this point if cases are down because social distancing worked (if it got the number of cases down low enough, possibly no children in the cheder were infected post-Pesach, and that's why there was no spike), or because of herd immunity, or simply because of the weather.

Here in Israel schools reopened. 99% had no problems; a couple of schools had outbreaks. It would be silly to say that the 99% were safe, while the others were unsafe. We all took the exact same risk, we just weren't all equally lucky.

Sounds like you've been lucky.

But don't take that as permission from the universe to be reckless. (I'm not talking about closing the school, or about any particular policy decision - just, careful with the attitude that it's all over and everything is fine)
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HonesttoGod




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, May 25 2020, 5:23 pm
ora_43 wrote:
Everyone is tired of making the same arguments over and over. We're not ignoring each other, we're talking past each other. Each convinced that what others are saying isn't a real answer.

Anyway. Short answer:

Covid19 is a novel virus, which makes it naive in the extreme to say that things are 'totally safe.' That doesn't mean we never reopen, but we reopen with the attitude of 'let's keep a careful eye on things,' not 'if it's been more than a month, that means it's over forever.'

Longer answer:

There's no way to know at this point if cases are down because social distancing worked (if it got the number of cases down low enough, possibly no children in the cheder were infected post-Pesach, and that's why there was no spike), or because of herd immunity, or simply because of the weather.

Here in Israel schools reopened. 99% had no problems; a couple of schools had outbreaks. It would be silly to say that the 99% were safe, while the others were unsafe. We all took the exact same risk, we just weren't all equally lucky.

Sounds like you've been lucky.

But don't take that as permission from the universe to be reckless. (I'm not talking about closing the school, or about any particular policy decision - just, careful with the attitude that it's all over and everything is fine)


This.
And of course, the law. Because as much as we may protest and hate it, it is still illegal to have more than 10 in a gathering. It is still illegal for schools to be open.

By all means, break the law , but don’t try pretend it’s ok or right.
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amother




Lavender
 

Post  Mon, May 25 2020, 6:11 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Just because people are dying now in Brazil, NY doesn't need to be locked down. And as long as our airports are open bringing in hordes of new people, the state is technically open anyway.


The song days the answer is blowing in the wind- as in there is no answer
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zaftigmom




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, May 25 2020, 6:11 pm
I personally worry that all the people who have relaxed social distancing will eventually bring a second wave before I get to come out my house from the first wave. Just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it won't.
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amother




Ecru
 

Post  Mon, May 25 2020, 6:18 pm
The nyc (children’s) hospital where I work is (obviously) filled with Covid patients (as well as those with then post inflammatory syndrome) How humiliating it was on Friday when I overheard a chassidish dad arguing with the attending regarding the regulation on limiting visitation to one parent at bedside, saying ‘but covid Is over. No one has it anymore’ and listened to the attending doctor respectfully clue in this ignorant, small minded man, as to the continued severity of this pandemic. What the doctor didn’t say, but I desperately wanted to: it’s not not all about you.
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chanatron1000




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, May 25 2020, 6:29 pm
I don't think it's shocking in any way that we don't know everything about a virus that has only existed for a short amount of time. We have to work with what we have and what we know.
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amother




Apricot
 

Post  Mon, May 25 2020, 6:34 pm
I'm also tired of making the same argument over and over again...

*That health comes first. Yes, of course teleconference learning is a very poor substitute for school, but is school worth ch"v losing lives for?

*That we don't know what will happen. Remember when everyone was doing everything normally before Purim, and all *seemed* fine, but then it was far from fine?

*That everyone should be wearing masks until we are sure that this has completely passed.

*That there are still many many cases in NY/NJ, and even if they are not in the frum community, it spreads very quickly and there are many many that have not had the virus.
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Zehava




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, May 25 2020, 6:40 pm
HonesttoGod wrote:
This.
And of course, the law. Because as much as we may protest and hate it, it is still illegal to have more than 10 in a gathering. It is still illegal for schools to be open.

By all means, break the law , but don’t try pretend it’s ok or right.

I do think it’s ok and right
The law is not the be-all end-all in all cases. Politicians have their own agendas and don’t care about us or even about the facts sometimes.
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amother




Royalblue
 

Post  Mon, May 25 2020, 6:44 pm
Zehava wrote:
I do think it’s ok and right
The law is not the be-all end-all in all cases. Politicians have their own agendas and don’t care about us or even about the facts sometimes.

I love that people are realizing this more and more when it stares them in the face. Same goes for repeal of religious exemptions to vaccines, same goes to the lessening of scrutiny over yeshivos, same goes for many many laws we have. No one is thinking about our individual benefit. They are advancing their own vision and sometimes enjoying the power and control on our account.
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Ora in town




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, May 25 2020, 6:47 pm
OP: Why do you have to repeat publicly all over the place that you are breaking the law?
Do you want so badly to get caught and pay a fine????
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amother




Aqua
 

Post  Mon, May 25 2020, 7:05 pm
You are one thousand percent right.

Those groups of kids have been together and there has not been a spike of new cases in these kehillas.

Yes there is a pandemic out there and according to the projected reality it will go on forever.

But those with the power to keep the lights off don’t trust that I as a parent can be responsible and send my kid to school. Because as you point out all those kids that have been in school since after pesach and their families and the staff have not had an uptick.
So these kids were sent responsibly to group learning programs. And it could be done.
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, May 25 2020, 7:14 pm
I think that pandemics burn themselves out. Hopefully there won't be a second wave but I have been reading about a cannabis product being tested that's supposed to help and then maybe it won't be as big of a concern. Meanwhile we are of the few people around here who still keep these rules.
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HonesttoGod




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, May 25 2020, 7:21 pm
Zehava wrote:
I do think it’s ok and right
The law is not the be-all end-all in all cases. Politicians have their own agendas and don’t care about us or even about the facts sometimes.


So if police come to fine or arrest you - you’re ok with that then as a consequence.
Because at the end of the day law is law whether you like it or not.
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amother




Aqua
 

Post  Mon, May 25 2020, 7:26 pm
HonesttoGod wrote:
So if police come to fine or arrest you - you’re ok with that then as a consequence.
Because at the end of the day law is law whether you like it or not.


I follow the law.
And, I believe the law is wrong.

Rosa Parks did not follow the law and did not give up her seat to a white person. She broke the law....what a ...

Open our schools
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HonesttoGod




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, May 25 2020, 7:37 pm
I also believe the law is wrong. Point is - it’s still the law.
So we have to be ok with consequences.

I don’t believe hat 65mph as a speed limit on a straight stretch of empty highway makes sense. So I drive at 75/80. It’s against the law. If I get pulled over I’ll take The ticket And suffer consequences.
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Zehava




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, May 25 2020, 7:43 pm
HonesttoGod wrote:
So if police come to fine or arrest you - you’re ok with that then as a consequence.
Because at the end of the day law is law whether you like it or not.

No one has the right to arrest me for sending my child to a private home. I don’t think they can fine me either.
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