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Can someone clue me in? WHAT CHANGED???
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amother




OP
 

Post  Mon, May 25 2020, 8:04 pm
Just a few weeks ago, people were treating each other as if they had the plague. Crossing the street when someone walks by, not eating food made outside your own house, ppl dying alone, ppl not saying kaddish in shul, not getting taharos, crazy situations of ppl making pesach alone. All in the name of sakanas nefashos.

Now I understand the the economy has to reopen. I totally get that. And I get that the government was worried about a healthcare system overload and now the curve has been flattened. But people's risk of getting sick and dying is no less than it was two months ago. The sakanas nefashos factor is still the same.

So I genuinely don't understand why our communities are "reopening"? Why are outdoor minyanim ok now if they weren't two months ago? Why is SD socializing, shopping or learning ok now if just a few weeks ago, the mere suggestion would have you pegged as a grandma-murderer?

What changed?!?!
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amother




Wine
 

Post  Mon, May 25 2020, 8:07 pm
To me the goal was to help hospitals handle the patients. Flatten the curve.

This isn’t over.
But we can’t live in isolation for years. It’s not sustainable. Until a vaccine is found we are all at continued risk.
I’m following laws and dr guidance. As long as it’s legal or my dr says we can be less careful that is what I’m doing.

How do you see this ending?
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PinkFridge




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, May 25 2020, 8:08 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Just a few weeks ago, people were treating each other as if they had the plague. Crossing the street when someone walks by, not eating food made outside your own house, ppl dying alone, ppl not saying kaddish in shul, not getting taharos, crazy situations of ppl making pesach alone. All in the name of sakanas nefashos.

Now I understand the the economy has to reopen. I totally get that. And I get that the government was worried about a healthcare system overload and now the curve has been flattened. But people's risk of getting sick and dying is no less than it was two months ago. The sakanas nefashos factor is still the same.

So I genuinely don't understand why our communities are "reopening"? Why are outdoor minyanim ok now if they weren't two months ago? Why is SD socializing, shopping or learning ok now if just a few weeks ago, the mere suggestion would have you pegged as a grandma-murderer?

What changed?!?!


I think the operative words are SD.
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amother




Indigo
 

Post  Mon, May 25 2020, 8:08 pm
the number of new cases daily is less that it was a few weeks ago. So in theory - there is less chance you will encounter the virus.
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amother




Silver
 

Post  Mon, May 25 2020, 8:14 pm
I’ve tried to explain this on every corona thread until the backlash and anger got to be too much.

The media decided that the only way to control people is through fear. Every news story was about people dying. Front line workers on this site were like “everyone gonna die!!!” Every newspaper article delighted in telling everyone the worst case scenario.

It works. But it doesn’t work for long.

Mostly, people got it and got over it. And carried on with their lives. To see your neighbor out and about because the worst is over is more upsetting than being told that you have to lock yourself away for all eternity because coronavirus will kill everyone and nothing will work - not medicine or vaccines or immunity.
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amother




Wine
 

Post  Mon, May 25 2020, 8:16 pm
PinkFridge wrote:
I think the operative words are SD.


Kids can’t SD for years
Can my kids not play catch forever. Or jump rope. I know there are active cases even if ppl say there aren’t. But if hospitals are dealing I think we have to live (when drs says it’s safe)
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Hillery




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, May 25 2020, 8:17 pm
A few weeks ago it was an unknown entity. By now we've seen that bh there haven't been any spikes within the heimishe community, and general laxity in SD hasn't caused any harm. So why not relax? What good reason could there possibly be for not relaxing the rules?
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itsmeima




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, May 25 2020, 8:18 pm
Hillery wrote:
A few weeks ago it was an unknown entity. By now we've seen that bh there haven't been any spikes within the heimishe community, and general laxity in SD hasn't caused any harm. So why not relax? What good reason could there possibly be for not relaxing the rules?


Is there a site tracking COVID-19 cases in the heimishe community?
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Hillery




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, May 25 2020, 8:21 pm
itsmeima wrote:
Is there a site tracking COVID-19 cases in the heimishe community?


Not per se, but we do have hatzola. And they'll confirm what I wrote.
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amother




Wine
 

Post  Mon, May 25 2020, 8:21 pm
itsmeima wrote:
Is there a site tracking COVID-19 cases in the heimishe community?


not positive counts.
But you can see hatzalah transports and there are none.

But before Purim there were also no transports and then boom - and it was in the community for a while.

All pandemics have lulls. We can daven this shouldn’t follow tevah - but I think we have to realize based on nature there is a chance this will start up again.
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itsmeima




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, May 25 2020, 8:24 pm
Hillery wrote:
Not per se, but we do have hatzola. And they'll confirm what I wrote.


Hatzola told you that?
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amother




OP
 

Post  Mon, May 25 2020, 8:25 pm
You've all given wonderful arguments to support the economic or humanitarian side of reopening, but no one has addressed the Jewish halachic/hashkafic side. If such extreme measures were put into place by our Rabbinic leaders for the sake of sakanas nefashos, now that the curve is flattened or the economy needs to be reopened, or "my kids won't stay sane staying inside" or even "the number of new cases have gone down so the risk is theoretically less" are irrelevant to the issue of sakanas nefashos. While our government leaders have our society's interests at large in mind, by reopening they are willing to accept a certain amount of deaths c"v (for a "greater" cause - that I am not arguing with). But halacha/hashkafa values the life of even one person, and so long as the risk to individuals is basically the same, I don't understand the decision to reopen on a community level.
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amother




Tangerine
 

Post  Mon, May 25 2020, 8:25 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Just a few weeks ago, people were treating each other as if they had the plague. Crossing the street when someone walks by, not eating food made outside your own house, ppl dying alone, ppl not saying kaddish in shul, not getting taharos, crazy situations of ppl making pesach alone. All in the name of sakanas nefashos.

Now I understand the the economy has to reopen. I totally get that. And I get that the government was worried about a healthcare system overload and now the curve has been flattened. But people's risk of getting sick and dying is no less than it was two months ago. The sakanas nefashos factor is still the same.

So I genuinely don't understand why our communities are "reopening"? Why are outdoor minyanim ok now if they weren't two months ago? Why is SD socializing, shopping or learning ok now if just a few weeks ago, the mere suggestion would have you pegged as a grandma-murderer?

What changed?!?!


I have been wondering the same thing. And to add to what you said, the doctors I have spoken to personally, or heard speaking to the community, think we still need to be very cautious and not change much in our behavior just yet. In light of that, I am surprised by how many on imamother have changed their tune from berating people who dare to go out to berating people who dare to suggest we still need to stay home.

(And I also don't get how people are already out and about as if everything is fine, but at the same time people are saying schools will not be able to reopen in September, which is over 3 months away.)
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itsmeima




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, May 25 2020, 8:26 pm
amother [ Wine ] wrote:
not positive counts.
But you can see hatzalah transports and there are none.

But before Purim there were also no transports and then boom - and it was in the community for a while.

All pandemics have lulls. We can daven this shouldn’t follow tevah - but I think we have to realize based on nature there is a chance this will start up again.


I'm guessing you don't sit by the window all day. Do you track how many sirens you hear on any given day?
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amother




Wine
 

Post  Mon, May 25 2020, 8:26 pm
itsmeima wrote:
Hatzola told you that?


I’ve heard this directly from hatzalah members in lakewood. They went from 100 calls, 10s of transports to none.
Bikur cholim also - not lending out oxygen machines, supplying food mainlt to old cases.
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giselle




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, May 25 2020, 8:26 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Just a few weeks ago, people were treating each other as if they had the plague. Crossing the street when someone walks by, not eating food made outside your own house, ppl dying alone, ppl not saying kaddish in shul, not getting taharos, crazy situations of ppl making pesach alone. All in the name of sakanas nefashos.

Now I understand the the economy has to reopen. I totally get that. And I get that the government was worried about a healthcare system overload and now the curve has been flattened. But people's risk of getting sick and dying is no less than it was two months ago. The sakanas nefashos factor is still the same.

So I genuinely don't understand why our communities are "reopening"? Why are outdoor minyanim ok now if they weren't two months ago? Why is SD socializing, shopping or learning ok now if just a few weeks ago, the mere suggestion would have you pegged as a grandma-murderer?

What changed?!?!

Of course the risk of getting sick and dying is much less than it was two months ago. That’s what changed.
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itsmeima




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, May 25 2020, 8:28 pm
amother [ Wine ] wrote:
I’ve heard this directly from hatzalah members in lakewood. They went from 100 calls, 10s of transports to none.
Bikur cholim also - not lending out oxygen machines, supplying food mainlt to old cases.


Okay, we've narrowed it down to Lakewood. Where in Lakewood?
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Hillery




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, May 25 2020, 8:30 pm
itsmeima wrote:
Hatzola told you that?


Yes. (I'm talking about Stamford Hill, London, and this has been going on for several weeks already. BH)
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amother




OP
 

Post  Mon, May 25 2020, 8:30 pm
Hillery wrote:
A few weeks ago it was an unknown entity. By now we've seen that bh there haven't been any spikes within the heimishe community, and general laxity in SD hasn't caused any harm. So why not relax? What good reason could there possibly be for not relaxing the rules?


Each one of your arguments is anecdotal/speculative. Holds no water in this conversation without supporting data.
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amother




Burgundy
 

Post  Mon, May 25 2020, 8:30 pm
The point was to flatten the curve so as not to overwhelm the hospitals. There was also uncertainty about the survival rate.

Now we've flattened the curve, there are enough hospital beds and such available for those who will need them. The survival rate is very high (over 99% according to studies I've seen, correct me if I'm wrong). Those who are vulnerable should by all means continue to self isolate. But there's no reason really for society to shut down.

As an aside, I listen to a podcast by someone who interned in talk radio many years ago. He's mentioned anecdotally in the past that when something big was going down (like a tornado or something) their instructions would be to scare the audience and to talk it up a lot so they would continue to tune back in to see what it will happen. A lot of media is like: all the panic makes for more views and clicks.
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