Can someone clue me in? WHAT CHANGED???

southernbubby

Mon, May 25 2020, 9:29 pm

amother [ Tangerine ] wrote:

But is the risk really that much lower that people have gone from ripping people apart for daring to go out to basically abandoning any efforts on this front?

And what about the people who are vulnerable? Will they never be able to leave their houses again? Will I never be able to go to my parents' house again because they are over 65?

I think that if there is a treatment protocol and a large enough supply of necessary drugs, my age group will rejoin the human race.

amother

Lilac

Mon, May 25 2020, 9:30 pm

itsmeima wrote:

Hatzola told you that?

I can confirm that for you. My husband is an Hatzalah coordinator in Brooklyn (in an area that was hit with 100s of calls between Purim & Pesach), and there has been not even ONE covid related call, and definitely no transport for the past 3-4 weeks! Chasdai Hashem! I have seen the data reports myself.

And my brother is a Hatzalah medic in Rockland county and the same stats reporting there. Bh.

amother

Emerald

Mon, May 25 2020, 9:30 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

The numbers went down bH which is amazing, but if there is no vaccine, cure or herd immunity, what's to prevent future deaths CV if we reopen? Of course SD will help, but it will not minimize the risk nearly as much as lockdown.

Again, asking from the halachic/hashkafic perspective, not economic/societal/humanitarian/flattening the curve perspective.

I think that we say "not only one life" in Halacha but it's not really true. If we really prized life above all else, our rabbanim would never let us drive, never let us congregate, never let us swim. Even in Halacha I think that there is room for flexibility. Halacha is "in the world", and recognizes that we still have to live our lives even though there is some risk to everything we do. The only thing our rabbeim can do is follow the law and medical experts. The medical experts are saying that congregating outside with 10 people is safe and low risk. So why shouldn't we have minyan?

amother

Olive

Mon, May 25 2020, 9:52 pm

Sorry for all the Brooklyn Hatzalah people. On May 12 a call was made to Flatbush Hatzalah. Person taken to ER was diagnosed with COVID and passed away a few days later.
Anonymous because of personal medical information being posted.
While we have to open the world. Please be aware that deaths are still happening. People are still dying of Covid and if we don’t SD and watch ourselves we will be in trouble with people all overwhelming the hospital.

amother

Lemon

Mon, May 25 2020, 9:54 pm

amother [ Natural ] wrote:

Lakewood in general has not transported a patient to the hospital for corona in about 3-4 weeks

Lakewood Township was the hardest hit in Ocean County, with 2263 cases to date. Toms River is next with 1444. That’s 3707 of the total 8224 cases in the County.

I suppose you’re saying that all of those cases were in the first few weeks. Maybe. But the same dashboard shows 2263 cases today, and 2237 a few days ago. Maybe all non Jews? Who knows. Our government doesn’t keep track.

In any case, I’m extremely disappointed that Hatzala members are talking to people about the types and diagnoses of patients whom they transport. How do they even know who is positive? I really have to think twice about my donations to them in the future if they engage in such unprofessional conduct.

amother

Lemon

Mon, May 25 2020, 10:05 pm

thunderstorm wrote:

My brother is a Hatzolah member and he works in a N.Y. hospital and I asked him about it since last week someone here mentioned that Hatzolah didn’t have any Covid related calls in the last few weeks, so I asked him if it was true and he said there were very few.

I was so upset to read that Hatzala discusses diagnoses that I contacted them. How can I possibly use or support a service where if you see them at my house, you’re going to know my medical issues because their people blab to others.

UQT

Mon, May 25 2020, 10:06 pm

The one life idea is until a point. I saw someone write a convincing argument. If someone shows up at your door and needs $300k to save his wife life are you obligated to mortgage your home on the premises that you need to do all to save one life?
I personally have three close friends who confided in me that either they themselves or their spouse are suffering emotionally - depression, panic attacks or anxiety.
At some point we realize we need to save ourselves from the fallout of lockup - which we can see with our own eyes than a second wave which may Or may not come.
Also many of us have eyes on Georgia, Texas even China that has opened up and have not seen any more cases than NY. We saw the Williamsburg levaya that didn’t cause spikes. We need to each judge on our own what we feel comfortable doing at this point I won’t judge you for staying home, don’t judge me for giving up SD based on the facts I see instead of listening to what the media wants us to do.

OutofTown Girl

Mon, May 25 2020, 10:06 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

You've all given wonderful arguments to support the economic or humanitarian side of reopening, but no one has addressed the Jewish halachic/hashkafic side. If such extreme measures were put into place by our Rabbinic leaders for the sake of sakanas nefashos, now that the curve is flattened or the economy needs to be reopened, or "my kids won't stay sane staying inside" or even "the number of new cases have gone down so the risk is theoretically less" are irrelevant to the issue of sakanas nefashos. While our government leaders have our society's interests at large in mind, by reopening they are willing to accept a certain amount of deaths c"v (for a "greater" cause - that I am not arguing with). But halacha/hashkafa values the life of even one person, and so long as the risk to individuals is basically the same, I don't understand the decision to reopen on a community level.

Have you seen the May 8 reopening guidelines from Agudas Yisroel?
https://www.theyeshivaworld.co......html

(BTW the heads of the Moetzes confirmed that they WERE behind these guidelines)

I think this can show you how our rabbanim approach reopening both halachically and hashkafically.

Though I wonder, realistically, how many shuls are actually adhering to the guidelines. Our shul opened in full compliance, and now five days in - all SD out the window...

amother

Royalblue

Mon, May 25 2020, 10:08 pm

amother [ Lemon ] wrote:

What do you mean? They aren't giving anyone's private info, they're collecting data and sharing statistics on herd immunity in certain areas.

amother

Gold

Mon, May 25 2020, 10:33 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Just a few weeks ago, people were treating each other as if they had the plague. Crossing the street when someone walks by, not eating food made outside your own house, ppl dying alone, ppl not saying kaddish in shul, not getting taharos, crazy situations of ppl making pesach alone. All in the name of sakanas nefashos.

Now I understand the the economy has to reopen. I totally get that. And I get that the government was worried about a healthcare system overload and now the curve has been flattened. But people's risk of getting sick and dying is no less than it was two months ago. The sakanas nefashos factor is still the same.

So I genuinely don't understand why our communities are "reopening"? Why are outdoor minyanim ok now if they weren't two months ago? Why is SD socializing, shopping or learning ok now if just a few weeks ago, the mere suggestion would have you pegged as a grandma-murderer?

What changed?!?!

You're seriously asking what changed??? The curve has flattened!!
That people actually recovered beautifully from being critically ill and
Hospitals are not overwhelmed anymore isn't enough of a change???

amother

Wine

Mon, May 25 2020, 10:42 pm

amother [ Lemon ] wrote:

Hipaa allows as long as no details or identifying info is shared.
How is knowing no covid transports and less calls an invasion of your privacy?

amother

Wine

Mon, May 25 2020, 10:44 pm

amother [ Lemon ] wrote:

The numbers will not go to zero until a vaccine or a miracle. Flattening the curve means the numbers are going down and hospitals are below capacity.

If the numbers of infections goes from 100 cases a day to 7 cases a day then that is an amazing argument to open again.
No?

amother

Purple

Mon, May 25 2020, 10:59 pm

Not every orthodox rav has said we should go back to even our door minyanim yet. And many communities are waiting u til two weeks past the opening guidelines to make sure curve doesn't go back up- as per RCA recommendations. My family is not doing anything differently than two weeks ago- as we hold by Rabanim who have given psak not to have even out door minyanim yet, and as far as shopping and play dates, we don't want to be Ginny pigs to see if there is a second wave as people are less careful (a sis occurring in many states), through I agree that many neighbors seem to be almost back to normal.

honeymoon

Mon, May 25 2020, 11:01 pm

UQT wrote:

This. While the Torah places a huge value on life and physical health, mental health is no less important. In fact, in the tefilla for refuah we ask for refuas hanefesh before we pray for refuas haguf.

amother

Forestgreen

Mon, May 25 2020, 11:03 pm

amother [ Lemon ] wrote:

No one is discussing the diagnosis of patients being transported. they're allowed to say that they havent transported covid patients to the hospital or that they havent received any covid related calls . There is nothing unprofessional about that. Relax . A dr is allowed to tell you that he is treating much less covid patients now than he was a month ago. No HIPAA violation there.

naturalmom5

Mon, May 25 2020, 11:04 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

This may be true in one or several locations. But even if it was true in most/all locations ( which we don't have info on), a second wave could c"v start as easily as the first - exactly the same way the first wave happened. Nothing has changed since the first wave. No vaccine, no treatment, no herd immunity. The fact that new infections are less may theoretically slightly minimize the risk AT THIS GIVEN MOMENT, but does not minimize the risk of future outbreaks c"v. So again, what changed???

The old 2nd wave theory zzzzzzzz