PSA vegan is still treif

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Forum -> Judaism -> Halachic Questions and Discussions

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malki2

Tue, May 26 2020, 3:50 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

So, now you know what the question asked was, and you know that the rabbi bent himself into a pretzel because .... because rabbis always let you do whatever you want?

No reason not to believe the same about your soda, then. Why do you need to compromise by sitting in a treif restaurant? If you're not going to eat, talk to them another time.

I would actually agree with you on that.

Mommyg8

Tue, May 26 2020, 3:51 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

Because a poster here stated that without exception, anyone who would eat in such circumstances isn't frum.

I just went back to find what the poster said, and I found this:

Hillery wrote:

Not just to me but to all frum Jews. Anyone who doesn't follow derabanans is not frum. End of.

How did you extrapolate from that statement that anyone who eats food that his Rav said is ok is not frum?

Mommyg8

Tue, May 26 2020, 3:54 pm

malki2 wrote:

I’ll explain.

I’ll let you all in on a little secret: Most of the time a Rav will direct a person based on the way that they asked their question. So basically here the guy told his Rav that he needs to eat something in the restaurant with the clients and is it ok if he eats a salad, and the Rav said ok. I don’t think that the Rav directed him to eat the salad. So what I was saying is, eating a salad is still questionable, even with the heter of a Rav. So why does the guy need to compromise altogether, when it would work just fine if he sat and drank a coke?

What an interesting Rav you have here.

Look, people can say all kinds of things, and they do, like "my Rav said it's ok to do this" when they never asked the question to the Rav to begin with, but here we are going on the presumption that this person did actually ask his Rav. I am assuming that an Orthodox Rav who is asked a question will issue a real psak. To second guess an actual psak is not ok. You can second guess what the question was, and even if the question was asked at all. But you can't second guess a psak.

imasinger

Tue, May 26 2020, 3:56 pm

Late to this party.

Thanks, Yael, for cleaning up the thread, thanks, Hillery, for clarifying an aspect of halacha that some might find confusing.

My 2 cents.

It was in a Rebbetzin Braunstein (z"l) CD shiur that I heard it stated like this--

We are all d'rabbanan Jews.

We don't eat chicken and cheese together. We light Shabbos candles.

And we follow rabbinic guidelines for TH and tevila.

To which we can add on this thread, and we follow rabbinic directives for basic definitions of what is considered kosher, and we ask a shaila if in doubt.

And I'll add, it's not our job to fix someone who has asked a shaila, like the gentleman described above, but it's perfectly reasonable to factually and kindly clarify halacha for someone who has not asked their rav, especially when there is no question about the basic halacha -- for anyone who might be confused, while always ending with, "of course, AYLOR to confirm."

amother

Papaya

Tue, May 26 2020, 3:59 pm

malki2 wrote:

How frequently do you go to restaurants with clients (or target clients) and during the course of a meal only consume liquid?

I think "eating a salad is still questionable, even with the heter of a Rav" - basically says, heterim don't serve a function... which perhaps is your hashkafa, but its not universal.

malki2

Tue, May 26 2020, 4:00 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

I’m not saying anything that complicated. A Rav will give a heter if you ask for one. If you don’t ask, he usually won’t offer one unless he sees a need. I’m not questioning the Rav’s psak. I’m trying to make a point that in my opinion, based on my experience, it’s possible to stay away from these things altogether without offending the clients. Sort of like refusing to shake hands. If you ask a Rav, he will usually tell you it’s not an issue. But you can usually go a step higher and get out of it altogether.

amother

Papaya

Tue, May 26 2020, 4:03 pm

malki2 wrote:

so what you are saying is - this guy is following halacha, but he's not a Baal Nefesh.

malki2

Tue, May 26 2020, 4:07 pm

amother [ Papaya ] wrote:

so what you are saying is - this guy is following halacha, but he's not a Baal Nefesh.

Where did I suggest that he’s not following Halacha?

amother

Papaya

Tue, May 26 2020, 4:10 pm

malki2 wrote:

Where did I suggest that he’s not following Halacha?

that's not what I wrote.

Mommyg8

Tue, May 26 2020, 4:13 pm

malki2 wrote:

Where did I suggest that he’s not following Halacha?

I think we are all a little bit confused as to what you are saying.

malki2

Tue, May 26 2020, 4:15 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

I think we are all a little bit confused as to what you are saying.

I think I was pretty clear, especially in my last post where I compared it to a handshake. Agree or disagree. I need to run.

Mommyg8

Tue, May 26 2020, 4:16 pm

malki2 wrote:

Huh?

Different Rabanim pasken differently.

If someone's Rav said they can, they can. If he said he can't, he can't. Not sure what the problem is.

Trust me, anyone who is on here (on imamother) can rely on any heter they want Wink

amother

Papaya

Tue, May 26 2020, 4:20 pm

malki2 wrote:

I think I was pretty clear, especially in my last post where I compared it to a handshake. Agree or disagree. I need to run.

Not really clear.

You seem to take issue with people who ask for heterim... when there is an option not to.

Basically - why should some some unknown man ask for a leniency, when other people wouldn't. Poor guy not here to answer for himself.

malki2

Tue, May 26 2020, 4:23 pm

amother [ Papaya ] wrote:

Bingo

Mommyg8

Tue, May 26 2020, 4:24 pm

malki2 wrote:

[b]Bingo

So you think it's inherently wrong to ask for a heter? In anything?

What are you doing here on the internet then?

tichellady

Tue, May 26 2020, 4:28 pm

Raisin wrote:

Orthodox Rabbis? I assume those guidelines are double wrapped fish, salads without onions or leafy veggies, cut up fruit...

It's pretty complex. Many people are just not knowledgeable enough.

Also not sure why a person HAS to eat at a business meeting.

And if someone has to eat urgently for health reasons - I don't know about where you live but vegan restaurants are pretty thin on the ground in most places. There are about 10 restaurants near my house. (probably more) None are exclusively vegan. (almost all vegans afaik will eat vegan food in any restaurant) Most people in a health emergency would just head for the nearest restaurant (or supermarket) and ask for the most acceptable option.

Business meetings aside (there are many threads on this topic if you care to look) I am curious which Orthodox rabbi allows eating for fun at vegan restaurants. And what the guidelines are. I am not being mean - I am just genuinely surprised to hear this.

Why would I be talking about non orthodox rabbis? How is that relevant to this discussion???

My point about the vegan restaurant versus non-vegan restaurant is not that a person who needs to eat immediately should drive to Find a vegan restaurant but that there’s obviously a difference in kashrut when it comes to eating something vegan ( maybe a derabbanan but may actually be fine ) versus eating treif meat ( deoraita) which I think some of the posters here did not seem to get.

I’m not going to name rabbis because that doesn’t end well for me on this site. I don’t think the only issue that comes up is someone having a business meeting it can be an issue of being a convert and trying to eat while taking care of your elderly parents in their non kosher facility, being a patient in a hospital where there is no kosher food, traveling to a foreign country for work or other reason where kosher food is hard to find. I know people in tough food situations due to quarantine because of covid. I know someone who was supposed to have a kosher pre Yom Kippur meal that was canceled an hour before Yom Kippur and she needed to Find food quickly. There is a reason why Chazal didn’t say you can’t eat any food prepared by a non Jew ever, there are exceptions to bishul akum for people to rely on.

Really outside of the US none of this is surprising. I have traveled a lot fortunately and kashrut ( by orthodox rabbis) is very different in Much of the world compared to the US. But that’s a whole other topic 😀

Last edited by tichellady on Tue, May 26 2020, 4:36 pm; edited 2 times in total

malki2

Tue, May 26 2020, 4:28 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

So you think it's inherently wrong to ask for a heter? In anything?

What are you doing here on the internet then?

No, I don’t think that it’s wrong to ask for a heter. In this particular case I believed that it was unnecessary. It’s also really difficult to keep away from doing anything assur when you eat at a non kosher restaurant and eat food that was prepared in their kitchen, off their dishes, the Rav’s heter notwithstanding. But that’s just my 2 cents. I’m sure that the guy is a great Jew and he as well as all of you have my respect and my blessing.

amother

Papaya

Tue, May 26 2020, 4:34 pm

malki2 wrote:

[b]Bingo

you claimed not to be judgmental - you've proven yourself to be.

malki2

Tue, May 26 2020, 4:41 pm

amother [ Papaya ] wrote:

you claimed not to be judgmental - you've proven yourself to be.

I don’t know this particular man. Therefore I see this as an academic discussion. I’m just trying to encourage people who care to aim a little higher.

amother

Papaya

Tue, May 26 2020, 4:44 pm

malki2 wrote:

I don’t know this particular man. Therefore I see this as an academic discussion. I’m just trying to encourage people who care to aim a little higher.

"academic discussion" and "encouraging people... to aim higher" are conflicting statements.

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