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CDC lying about flu deaths to get more people to vaccinate?
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amother




OP
 

Post  Wed, May 27 2020, 1:29 am
https://aspe.hhs.gov/cdc-—-influenza-deaths-request-correction-rfc
https://blogs.scientificameric.....nges/

So turns out that the CDC has been lying and artificially increasing flu death amounts to make people more afraid and get them to take the flu vaccine.

Apparently, they consider lying to get their agenda appropriate. So they'll say that masks are useless or dangerous (to protect hospital supply) despite them knowing better, and say that flu deaths are 10 times higher than they are to scare people into vaccinating (with a vaccine of questionable benefit).

I am already a very reluctant vaxxer, this is making me even more concerned. What else are they lying about?
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Ora in town




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, May 27 2020, 2:06 am
They are not lying.
CDC in general does not state a precise number of flu deaths, but a range, like 20'000 to 60'000 or so in the USA.
And I suppose it is not the CDC itself that distorts the message from "overmortality likely caused by flu" to "flu-deaths", but more the journalists who report and distort the data...
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amother




OP
 

Post  Wed, May 27 2020, 4:01 am
Did you read the links posted? The CDC "bundles" flu and pneumonia deaths deliberately to increase the numbers.

Quote:
At the 2004 "National Influenza Vaccine Summit," co-sponsored by CDC and the American Medical Association, Glen Nowak, associate director for communications at the NIP, spoke on using the media to boost demand for the vaccine. One step of a "Seven-Step `Recipe' for Generating Interest in, and Demand for, Flu (or any other) Vaccination" occurs when "medical experts and public health authorities publicly...state concern and alarm (and predict dire outcomes)—and urge influenza vaccination" (www.ama-assn.org/ama1/pub/upload/mm/36/2004_flu_nowak.pdf). Another step entails "continued reports...that influenza is causing severe illness and/or affecting lots of people, helping foster the perception that many people are susceptible to a bad case of influenza." Preceding the summit, demand had been low early into the 2003 flu season. "At that point, the manufacturers were telling us that they weren't receiving a lot of orders for vaccine for use in November or even December," recalled Dr Nowak on National Public Radio. "It really did look like we needed to do something to encourage people to get a flu shot." If flu is in fact not a major cause of death, this public relations approach is surely exaggerated. Moreover, by arbitrarily linking flu with pneumonia, current data are statistically biased. Until corrected and until unbiased statistics are developed, the chances for sound discussion and public health policy are limited.
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ora_43




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, May 27 2020, 4:22 am
The CDC has never lied about how they count flu deaths. The fact that it's an estimate has always been explicitly clear. Information about how and why they estimate, rather than counting confirmed cases, has always been clearly stated on their website for anyone who wants to read it.

They also have not been lying about face masks. Again, look at their website. They recommend cloth face masks and have for some time. The Q&A about that includes the question "Why is the CDC recommending cloth face coverings instead of medical grade facemasks?" and the answer "Surgical masks and N95 respirators are in short supply and should be reserved for healthcare workers or other medical first responders, as recommended by CDC guidance."

I don't doubt that some people are deliberately misrepresenting what the CDC says for their own purposes. Eg, all the people making a false comparison between estimated flu deaths and confirmed covid19 deaths. But that's on them, not on the CDC.
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amother




OP
 

Post  Wed, May 27 2020, 5:00 am
It's an "estimate" made of combining flu and pneumonia deaths, and doctors are the ones calling them out on it this time, although some think that the hyperbole was "justified".

The mask policy change is also well documented.
See these two links for example:
https://www.npr.org/sections/g.....ublic
https://www.dallasnews.com/new.....ange/

Yes, of course the media jumped on these statements, but they were not distorted by the media.
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ora_43




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, May 27 2020, 5:48 am
CDC: We think the flu kills around 50,000 people a year -

Journalists: Flu kills 50,000 people? K thanks byeeeee.

CDC: - based on estimates and modeling aimed at .... wait where are you going??

Journalists: Hey guys, rock climbing without a rope is officially less dangerous than the flu! The CDC said so!

CDC: *sigh*

Doctors: This is on you, dude, you know journalists always tune out the math-y parts.

**
I'm not saying the CDC is blameless, here, but they aren't lying. Failing to communicate well with the general public, yes, being deliberately dishonest, no.
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ora_43




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, May 27 2020, 5:53 am
There are valid reasons for estimating flu deaths that have nothing to do with vaccines. Using a real example with covid19 - there's a region in Ecuador that usually sees around 1,000 deaths in the first half of April. This year, covid19 hit, and they had over 6,500 deaths in the same time period.

Officially, there were around 500 covid19 deaths in the entire country in early to mid-April.

Now what makes more sense - estimating that the real death toll of covid19 was much higher than the official death toll? Or saying that in that province, 50 people died of covid19 and another 5,450 died of nothing in particular?

Sometimes the official numbers are so wildly inaccurate that an (also inaccurate) estimate is an improvement.

It's rare that people are tested for flu, and when they are, false negatives are common. Hence the need to estimate based on symptoms - including pneumonia - rather than rely on the official numbers.
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amother




Jade
 

Post  Wed, May 27 2020, 7:43 am
OP, I’m with you. It’s pretty fishy...
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, May 27 2020, 8:09 am
I always get a flu shot because the flu can be life threatening but I do wonder where the flu deaths are occuring and how the health system manages it. After seeing what happened with the Corona virus, how were hospitals dealing with infectious flu patients? The staff was vaccinated but that's not always effective.
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amother




Honeydew
 

Post  Wed, May 27 2020, 8:20 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Did you read the links posted? The CDC "bundles" flu and pneumonia deaths deliberately to increase the numbers.

Quote:
At the 2004 "National Influenza Vaccine Summit," co-sponsored by CDC and the American Medical Association, Glen Nowak, associate director for communications at the NIP, spoke on using the media to boost demand for the vaccine. One step of a "Seven-Step `Recipe' for Generating Interest in, and Demand for, Flu (or any other) Vaccination" occurs when "medical experts and public health authorities publicly...state concern and alarm (and predict dire outcomes)—and urge influenza vaccination" (www.ama-assn.org/ama1/pub/upload/mm/36/2004_flu_nowak.pdf). Another step entails "continued reports...that influenza is causing severe illness and/or affecting lots of people, helping foster the perception that many people are susceptible to a bad case of influenza." Preceding the summit, demand had been low early into the 2003 flu season. "At that point, the manufacturers were telling us that they weren't receiving a lot of orders for vaccine for use in November or even December," recalled Dr Nowak on National Public Radio. "It really did look like we needed to do something to encourage people to get a flu shot." If flu is in fact not a major cause of death, this public relations approach is surely exaggerated. Moreover, by arbitrarily linking flu with pneumonia, current data are statistically biased. Until corrected and until unbiased statistics are developed, the chances for sound discussion and public health policy are limited.

Bundling flu with pneumonia is key here. Many people who they found aren't tested for the flu. Also, the vast majority are very old people. Again there are numbers on the web but the flu shot is recommended for fetuses even. Also, it is very difficult to find info on the web on flu deaths prior to 10 years ago. Has the shot been helping significantly? I'm just questioning here and feeling skepticle.
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egam




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, May 27 2020, 8:21 am
A pneumonia is very often comes as a flu complication. So it might have sense to bundle them together in these cases.
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amother




Maroon
 

Post  Wed, May 27 2020, 8:28 am
Many older people who die from the flu are dying of pneumonia because it settles in their lungs.
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Hashem_Yaazor




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, May 27 2020, 8:29 am
It might actually be a poor idea to do it. Efficacy of the flu vaccine in the older, vulnerable population is lower than other demographics. Perhaps because the numbers are skewed so many deaths are not actually due to flu and the vaccine shouldn't have been able to help.
If it brings down definite flu cases, the efficacy rate would be better.
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amother




Plum
 

Post  Wed, May 27 2020, 8:39 am
I truly hope that imamother is not turning into an anti-vaxx discussion board. I am seeing a disturbing trend on here...
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Amarante




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, May 27 2020, 8:43 am
Seniors now take a different flu vaccine which is much more effective for seniors than the standard version. This is a fairly recent option.

Most people who die of flu are not autopsied so most cases of flu aren’t diagnosed by anything other than symptoms.

In general you don’t die of flu per se but the complications from it. The most common fatal complication especially for seniors is pneumonia.

I get flu shots every year as does my family and only had flu once years ago when I didn’t have a shot because I was young and stupid.

All of the right wing conspiracy theories intended to discredit and cast doubt on scientific expertise is what frightens me.


Last edited by Amarante on Wed, May 27 2020, 8:53 am; edited 1 time in total
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amother




cornflower
 

Post  Wed, May 27 2020, 8:49 am
amother [ Plum ] wrote:
I truly hope that imamother is not turning into an anti-vaxx discussion board. I am seeing a disturbing trend on here...


its not new. it has its own forum.
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amother




Plum
 

Post  Wed, May 27 2020, 8:51 am
amother [ cornflower ] wrote:
its not new. it has its own forum.


Having its own forum implies this is a select group of people who can discuss their views on one of the restricted areas. Now these views are being discussed and spread on the general forums too, as in this thread.
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Mommyg8




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, May 27 2020, 10:03 am
Amarante wrote:
Seniors now take a different flu vaccine which is much more effective for seniors than the standard version. This is a fairly recent option.

Most people who die of flu are not autopsied so most cases of flu aren’t diagnosed by anything other than symptoms.

In general you don’t die of flu per se but the complications from it. The most common fatal complication especially for seniors is pneumonia.

I get flu shots every year as does my family and only had flu once years ago when I didn’t have a shot because I was young and stupid.

All of the right wing conspiracy theories intended to discredit and cast doubt on scientific expertise is what frightens me.


I guess flu shots only harm RW conspiracy theorists then. Many people I have spoken to IRL have actually gotten the flu exactly two weeks after they got the flu shot. Numerous times. I have also heard numerous people (not people I know personally, but calling into a radio show) state that they were harmed in some way from the flu vaccine.

My guess is that the flu shot has a homing device that only harms those who are RW conspiracy theorists. What a clever vaccine!
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Mommyg8




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, May 27 2020, 10:09 am
Back to the OP - I don't think the CDC is manipulating the numbers to get everyone to take flu shots. I mean, it could be possible, but unless you have evidence that the CDC directly benefits financially from the flu shots I'm not sure that I would think that way.

However. I am still surprised that nobody ever mentions some of the serious side effects that the CDC DOES actually list for many immunizations. The side effects for the DPT shot, for example, can get pretty scary. And this is the CDC's own website. I don't understand how people can just insist that they are perfectly safe when the CDC actually acknowledges that they may not be. What am I missing?

(Disclaimer - I believe in vaccinating my kids, but after research I did do it on a delayed schedule).
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dancingqueen




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, May 27 2020, 10:17 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
I guess flu shots only harm RW conspiracy theorists then. Many people I have spoken to IRL have actually gotten the flu exactly two weeks after they got the flu shot. Numerous times. I have also heard numerous people (not people I know personally, but calling into a radio show) state that they were harmed in some way from the flu vaccine.

My guess is that the flu shot has a homing device that only harms those who are RW conspiracy theorists. What a clever vaccine!


Well if people calling into radio shows say something then it must be true!
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