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Can't get away from herd immunity?
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CiCi




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jun 01 2020, 1:45 pm
Lockdowns don't help in the long run. I believe that the virus needs to run its course because the only way it recedes is through herd immunity.

The virus had spread in Israeli schools even with strongly enforced lockdowns.

https://vosizneias.com/2020/06.....eaks/

Edit: I want to clarify that I don't mean vaccine type of total immunity but more like low level immunity like we have to the flu and other viruses.

Edit #2: The hypocrisy on this thread is beyond. Many have bashed me for saying it will spread and then admitted themselves that it will spread but that we had to flatten the curve. I never said that we didn't have to flatten the curve. All I said was that lockdowns do not stop the from spreading in the long-run. Because the world cannot lock themselves in forever, at a certain point life has to continue and so does the spread of the virus. Sorry.

As Ben Shapiro says " facts don't care about your feelings."

Edit #3: 100% total lockdowns and long-term lockdowns cannot and never will happen. I'm not going to explain here why as I don't have the patience to do so. It's self-explanatory, reality won't change even if you don't get it.


Last edited by CiCi on Tue, Jun 02 2020, 1:11 pm; edited 7 times in total
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amother




Beige
 

Post  Mon, Jun 01 2020, 1:50 pm
CiCi wrote:
Lockdowns don't help in the long run. The virus needs to run its course because the only why it recedes is through herd immunity.

The virus had spread in Israeli schools.

https://vosizneias.com/2020/06.....eaks/

How can you have herd immunity with a virus that you can catch again after just 6 months?

Lockdowns, if they are complete, can be over within a month or so. Whoever has it will give it to their family members, and it will have nowhere else to go. No one can get infected anymore. Done.

But no one wants to go that route.
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CiCi




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jun 01 2020, 1:55 pm
amother [ Beige ] wrote:
How can you have herd immunity with a virus that you can catch again after just 6 months?

Lockdowns, if they are complete, can be over within a month or so. Whoever has it will give it to their family members, and it will have nowhere else to go. No one can get infected anymore. Done.

But no one wants to go that route.


I always said it doesn't work and now you see it didn't work in Israel. We don't live in bubbles.

I believe it's like the flu. Even if it comes back every year it's still not so infectious as covid-19 was and not so potent because we are all somewhat immune to it.
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elisheva25




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jun 01 2020, 1:59 pm
CiCi wrote:
Lockdowns don't help in the long run. The virus needs to run its course because the only why it recedes is through herd immunity.

The virus had spread in Israeli schools.

https://vosizneias.com/2020/06.....eaks/


I agree with you , 100% . We need to achieve herd immunity . And move on. But not everyone agrees. To keep going to lockdown, like they are dong in Israel is crazy and to keep having a non stop lockdown like we have in NY is also crazy.
99.9 % of the population recovers from this virus with no issues .
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amother




Beige
 

Post  Mon, Jun 01 2020, 2:02 pm
CiCi wrote:
I always said it doesn't work and now you see it didn't work in Israel. We don't live in bubbles.

I believe it's like the flu. Even if it comes back every year it's still not so infectious as covid-19 was and not so potent because we are all somewhat immune to it.

But that's the thing.

Israel never did a full lockdown. Close, but not quite. And they reopened schools very very fast when people were still turning up positive.

This isn't like flu because flu doesn't kill this many people this fast, or send this many people to the hospital. If it did, hospitals would look like coronavirus wards every single winter.

Even in your post you admit that flu is not as effective as COVID-19 and it's not as potent. You assume that's because of immunity but the fact is that the viruses work in very different ways, and you can't compare one to the other.
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amother




Beige
 

Post  Mon, Jun 01 2020, 2:03 pm
elisheva25 wrote:
I agree with you , 100% . We need to achieve herd immunity . And move on. But not everyone agrees. To keep going to lockdown, like they are dong in Israel is crazy and to keep having a non stop lockdown like we have in NY is also crazy.
99.9 % of the population recovers from this virus with no issues .

Sweden tried that. Instead of gaining herd immunity, they have the highest number of deaths per million in the world.
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Mevater




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jun 01 2020, 2:08 pm
What are Quatar and Saudi Arabia doing?

They have 50,000+ cases and a fraction of a percent death rate.

US has a 6% death rate.

https://www.statista.com/stati.....wide/
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elisheva25




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jun 01 2020, 2:12 pm
amother [ Beige ] wrote:
Sweden tried that. Instead of gaining herd immunity, they have the highest number of deaths per million in the world.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/w.....3famp
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#Happymom




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jun 01 2020, 2:16 pm
If you are opting for herd immunity, are you also ready to say goodbye to your famioy members who are 70+?? Since people in that age bracket are very often victims of Covid 19. Unfortunately, that is what England also tried and now have terrible death rates and deep in lockdown...
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amother




Beige
 

Post  Mon, Jun 01 2020, 2:17 pm
elisheva25 wrote:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/sweden/2020-05-12/swedens-coronavirus-strategy-will-soon-be-worlds%3famp

Everyone is trying to find the magic formula.

An opinion article by a political commentator says nothing about whether herd immunity is even applicable in this case.

And Sweden's top epidemiologists believe the country made a mistake and reached for an unrealistic dream, causing terrible tragedy.
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amother




Beige
 

Post  Mon, Jun 01 2020, 2:20 pm
#Happymom wrote:
If you are opting for herd immunity, are you also ready to say goodbye to your famioy members who are 70+?? Since people in that age bracket are very often victims of Covid 19. Unfortunately, that is what England also tried and now have terrible death rates and deep in lockdown...

Not just 70+, also anyone who has diabetes, a heart condition, or certain genetic markers. Basically, pretty much anyone. Are you willing to die, or to lose your parents, siblings, spouse, and children ch'v on the altar of a possibly unreachable herd immunity? If not, then you have no right to preach herd immunity. If so, well, then, go ahead and push for herd immunity, just say at the outset that you're willing to die for it and lose your parents, siblings, spouse, and children in the process, so we all know you're sincere and not just pushing eugenics because you think you're part of a privileged elite.
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amother




Orchid
 

Post  Mon, Jun 01 2020, 2:22 pm
Nobody will know for sure till the dust settles and serious post studies are done. (Though the latest articles aren't praising Sweden anymore.)
However, what is happening is Israel does provide support for a gradual school opening, rather than all at once, full day. The original, limited "hybrid" sort of plan with half classes, half a day, etc probably would have prevented this outbreak.
Problem is, people became too impatient and were in a rush for everything to open at full capacity right away.
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amother




Saddlebrown
 

Post  Mon, Jun 01 2020, 2:27 pm
It is important to remember the reason for the lockdown. It was not to eradicate the virus. It was to flatten the curve, and make sure that the hospitals weren't swamped and unable to treat patients. So while we have flattened the curve and eased the strain on hospitals the virus is still out there. It may or may not slow down in warm weather. (Countries like Singapore still have a lot of cases even though there is warm weather.) So the lockdown was effective for what it was designed.

Now the questions remains as to how best to open.
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jun 01 2020, 2:31 pm
I wonder if, as more people are exposed to the virus, that in time it becomes more survivable. When settlers moved west, Native Americans were killed by measles and smallpox while most Europeans survived because the viruses were a part of their environment while the natives had no immunity.
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amother




Natural
 

Post  Mon, Jun 01 2020, 2:46 pm
In response to the post with criticism of Israels rush to.open schools for a full day.
I'm assuming you're not in Israel. I am. I have five kids in schools here and each of them opened very very gradually. Just to clarify.
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amother




Orchid
 

Post  Mon, Jun 01 2020, 2:50 pm
I think of gradually being over the course of a couple of months. Not a few weeks. Which is what I heard from my relatives in Israel. But maybe it depended on where in Israel.
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amother




Beige
 

Post  Mon, Jun 01 2020, 2:58 pm
amother [ Natural ] wrote:
In response to the post with criticism of Israels rush to.open schools for a full day.
I'm assuming you're not in Israel. I am. I have five kids in schools here and each of them opened very very gradually. Just to clarify.

Schools went from closed to fully reopened, full classes, no SD, no masks even, within about 3 weeks.

The original plan was probably safe. But it wasn't enough and parents wanted full days. So that's what they did. And then the heat wave, so no masks. And now look where we are.

Any schools which reopened less gradually than that are doing it on their own, not because that's what the Education and Health ministries said.

amother [ Orchid ] wrote:
I think of gradually being over the course of a couple of months. Not a few weeks. Which is what I heard from my relatives in Israel. But maybe it depended on where in Israel.

Not really. We were in lockdown since just after Purim, and things were still mostly closed on Yom Ha'atzmaut, IIRC. So that's till early Iyar. Now it's early Sivan, one month later, and everything is opened back up, except incoming tourism. This wasn't over the course of a few months.
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nchr




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jun 01 2020, 3:00 pm
elisheva25 wrote:
I agree with you , 100% . We need to achieve herd immunity . And move on. But not everyone agrees. To keep going to lockdown, like they are dong in Israel is crazy and to keep having a non stop lockdown like we have in NY is also crazy.
99.9 % of the population recovers from this virus with no issues .


99.9% definitely does not recover with no issue. It is likely that around 99% do recover, with less than 1% dying. Those who experience intensive care often to have left over issues (kidney, lung and/or liver damage, emotional distress, etc.) However, with the herd immunity approach and the infrastructure in the US you will have more than 1% dying due to hospitals' inability to address all patients so I'm not sure how that is a viable route for you. People are screaming about the hospital and negligence but they don't realize that the situation that created that was too many cases at once.
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CiCi




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jun 01 2020, 3:07 pm
#Happymom wrote:
If you are opting for herd immunity, are you also ready to say goodbye to your famioy members who are 70+?? Since people in that age bracket are very often victims of Covid 19. Unfortunately, that is what England also tried and now have terrible death rates and deep in lockdown...


My family members over 70 were exposed to the virus...Many younger and healthy people died. It's not up to us, it's not up to me. What I want reality to be, and what I believe the reality is, are two seperate things.
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amother




Plum
 

Post  Mon, Jun 01 2020, 3:09 pm
elisheva25 wrote:
I agree with you , 100% . We need to achieve herd immunity . And move on. But not everyone agrees. To keep going to lockdown, like they are dong in Israel is crazy and to keep having a non stop lockdown like we have in NY is also crazy.
99.9 % of the population recovers from this virus with no issues .

So, the question: Are you completely ignorant or just lying?

Somewhere between 5-20% of people who contract this virus are hospitalized.
Somewhere between 1%-5% of people who contract this virus end up in the ICU.
Somewhere between .5-1% of people who contract this virus die.

It’s unknown how long lasting or severe the damage to lungs/heart/kidneys are, but based on follow up scans of SARS as well as lung scans of asymptomatic COVID patients, it’s incredibly likely that just about anyone who got the virus has a significantly lower life expectancy (think 10-20 years younger death).

This disease is the real deal. Do with this information what you will, and make your own life decisions, but anyone telling you otherwise has an agenda.
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