Can't get away from herd immunity?

CiCi

Mon, Jun 01 2020, 12:18 pm

amother [ Plum ] wrote:

So, the question: Are you completely ignorant or just lying?

Somewhere between 5-20% of people who contract this virus are hospitalized.
Somewhere between 1%-5% of people who contract this virus end up in the ICU.
Somewhere between .5-1% of people who contract this virus die.

It’s unknown how long lasting or severe the damage to lungs/heart/kidneys are, but based on follow up scans of SARS as well as lung scans of asymptomatic COVID patients, it’s incredibly likely that just about anyone who got the virus has a significantly lower life expectancy (think 10-20 years younger death).

This disease is the real deal. Do with this information what you will, and make your own life decisions, but anyone telling you otherwise has an agenda.

20% of the people who contracted were not hospitalized. It is likely less than 5% because not everyone who had it tested for the virus

The heimishe communities in NY had it and got over it. It is extremely unfortunate that many people died but half of the people who died did so because of neglect, no proper care and no family members around them.

Many continued to be worried until the rioters took care of the worrying about covid-19. It is here to stay and it's ridiculous to think that we will always be in lockdown.

amother

Plum

Mon, Jun 01 2020, 12:21 pm

CiCi wrote:

Yes yes, the lack of family members is what killed them. The whole virus thing is a Democratic/Chinese hoax and it’s really just the flu.

Ora in town

Mon, Jun 01 2020, 12:23 pm

CiCi wrote:

Lockdowns don't help in the long run. The virus needs to run its course because the only why it recedes is through herd immunity.

The virus had spread in Israeli schools.

https://vosizneias.com/2020/06.....eaks/

This is a logical fallacy.

The fact that new outbreaks were registered in Israel once the schools opened and security measures were not followed just shows how important it is to follow safety rules...
Still no kissing... still no big assemblies... keep 2m distance... wear masks when inside... try to stick with the same people and mix as little as possible...

And the best measure would be: test the children and teachers before you reopen school, quarantine the carriers before they infected 100 other people...

amother

Plum

Mon, Jun 01 2020, 12:24 pm

CiCi wrote:

What do you mean by had it and got over it? Half died because of neglect? Why do you think they were there, for a pizza party? Do you have any clue how many were infected? Any clue how many were hospitalized? What do rioters have to do with you putting people’s lives at risk with misinformed misguided dangerous statements that have ALREADY caused hundreds of frum Jews to die? Please show some hard numbers to back up your statements.

amother

Beige

Mon, Jun 01 2020, 12:26 pm

CiCi wrote:

And many people who think they had it, actually don't have antibodies and their tests in real time turned out negative.

It goes both ways.

But it really is unfortunate that so many people died, isn't it? Such a thing couldn't happen to your family, since you would make sure they did not suffer neglect, had proper care, and had family members around them.

Ora in town

Mon, Jun 01 2020, 12:31 pm

elisheva25 wrote:

I agree with you , 100% . We need to achieve herd immunity . And move on. But not everyone agrees. To keep going to lockdown, like they are dong in Israel is crazy and to keep having a non stop lockdown like we have in NY is also crazy.
99.9 % of the population recovers from this virus with no issues .

Well, most likely those who lost friends and family members to the virus will not agree... Because it is a matter of life and death... Nor will those agree who got the severe form of the disease and were on ventilation for several weeks... nor those who lost part of their lungs to the virus... nor those who are immunocomprised...

CiCi

Mon, Jun 01 2020, 12:32 pm

amother [ Plum ] wrote:

Yes yes, the lack of family members is what killed them. The whole virus thing is a Democratic/Chinese hoax and it’s really just the flu.

Yes. When someone is extremely weak and they feel helpless being alone with no human contact and adequate care and they are trapped to their own beds from weakness, then their brain can slowly shut down, particularly with older people.Talking from personal experience with a family member.

Your misconstruing my words doesnt change the reality that the virus is receding after herd immunity has developed and in places where there were extreme lockdowns it will recede only when herd immunity is sufficiently undeveloped.

Miri1

Mon, Jun 01 2020, 12:37 pm

CiCi wrote:

I don't think this surprised anyone in Israel (well apart from the fact that a teacher knowingly went back to teach when sick).
But you can't compare Israel.
See, their goal wasn't the same as ours. Because they locked down earlier, they have an easier time containing and tracking the virus now... we hope!

The fact that it crops up in a few schools wasn't a shocker, its more about the ability to contain it all.

Now Sweden tried the herd immunity idea. That isn't containable.

Miri1

Mon, Jun 01 2020, 12:39 pm

CiCi wrote:

When you have overwhelmed hospitals you have neglected patients.
There's no getting around it without controlling the spread.

I

amother

Plum

Mon, Jun 01 2020, 12:45 pm

CiCi wrote:

Ah, you have personal experience that you can attest to of someone’s brain shutting down because they didn’t have human contact for a few days. Sorry, go peddle your garbage elsewhere. The earth isn’t flat. (Were they coincidentally terribly ill with a deadly virus at the same time? Unrelated, of course, because the lack of human contact is obviously what killed them).

Ah, so you’re saying the difference between all the countries that shut down early and successfully and prevented the loss of many lives (Denmark, Finland, Norway, Israel, Singapore, S Korea, Taiwan, etc.) and those that didn’t shut down early or harsh enough (Spain, Italy, Sweden, France, UK, Ireland, US, Belgium, Netherlands, Brazil etc.) is the herd immunity effect? Denmark reached it after 500 lives but Sweden needed more than 4K? The UK needed to sacrifice 40K lives to reach immunity but Singapore only required 24? You’re one heck of an epidemiologist.

amother

Beige

Mon, Jun 01 2020, 12:48 pm

CiCi wrote:

Please don't pervert what happened in Israel to suit your own political agenda.

The virus was receding but some people were irresponsible and now thousands are in quarantine.

But that doesn't mean they all contracted the virus. The actual number of positive tests is not that high yet. One single day with more than 100 people diagnosed and then back down to double digits. Across a whole country.

Yes, lockdown works. Quarantining carriers works. If you keep at it and you act responsibly coronavirus can be contained or eradicated. Israel left itself room to make mistakes without crippling its healthcare system. A little spike was something all of us expected, and none of us are in the least bit surprised. The little spike is okay, as long as it stays little.

We are not proof that you can do what you want. We are proof that when you act responsibly and with wisdom, thousands if not millions of lives can be saved.

Stop twisting our reality to suit yourself. Just stop.

CiCi

Mon, Jun 01 2020, 12:51 pm

Regardless if people like the outcome, watever will happen in Israel will show us how the virus containment works in a country with extreme lockdown measures. It has of of now spread to over a hundred students who will spread it to their families and I'm sure many others have it, it came from somewhere...

amother

Beige

Mon, Jun 01 2020, 12:53 pm

CiCi wrote:

Yes, it came from someone irresponsible who couldn't be bothered to keep the rules. And it spread because the schools were open.

Why is that a surprise? How does it prove that lockdown doesn't work? I have news for you: If the schools had still been closed, our numbers would be in the tens or twenties, max.

CiCi

Mon, Jun 01 2020, 12:54 pm

amother [ Beige ] wrote:

How does it suit myself? What do I gain from having this opinion? Do you enjoy hurting people you don't agree with? You can state your opinion without shooting barbs.

CiCi

Mon, Jun 01 2020, 12:59 pm

amother [ Plum ] wrote:

Thank you for hurting me to the core. My mother is in the hospital with cancer and just two days after she was admitted she went from being fully coherent and texting us that she's not getting care to being unresponsive. Yes, her brain shut down from feeling helpless because otherwise her vitals are totally stable. How can you be so mean, wow.

We are trying to get her to a hospital that let's patients have visitors but they are not letting us take her out.

You are cruel. You could've said the same thing without being mean.

amother

Beige

Mon, Jun 01 2020, 1:04 pm

CiCi wrote:

How does it suit myself? What do I gain from having this opinion? Do you enjoy hurting people you don't agree with? You can state your opinion without shooting barbs.

You are using Israel to "prove" that lockdown doesn't work and that everything should reopen, because that is what you'd like to see happen, and trying to convince others on this board that this is the correct thing to pressure their local governments for.

CiCi

Mon, Jun 01 2020, 1:07 pm

amother [ Beige ] wrote:

Edited original because I misread the comment: Yes, I believe it's a part of life with any virus. Unless you can have families living in bubbles forever, the virus continues to spread. The more containment, the more controlled spreading, until there's some sort of her immunity.

You can dispute my beliefs but you don't have to be viscous about it. I'm simply stating my conclusion from observation of Israel's lockdown. You can state your opinion and I can state my opinion.

Last edited by CiCi on Mon, Jun 01 2020, 11:22 pm; edited 1 time in total