Manipulative child

amother

Tue, Jun 02 2020, 9:55 am

amother [ Magenta ] wrote:

I also have a manipulative child, now 13. He is also extremely social-savvy, creative, artistic, good at sports, and both book-smart and street-smart. And he is a very good actor. He has given his teachers a hard time till this year and pretended to us that nothing is his fault. He had an explanation for everything, shirked the blame and responsibility, even when he masterminded prank upon prank on his teachers.
At age 3 I realized we were walking on eggshells around him and I knew then if I didnt stop it I'd have raised a monster.

He has grown up a lot BH and no longer does much of these things. Some of the things I'm working to instill in him include honesty (it's really not ok to cheat on tests!!! Does he have any of my genes? I can't lie to save my life) and reawakening his different interests (somehow he got stuck on soldiers and weapons and nothing else matters).

Three parenting tricks I've used with him that worked 100% of the time:
1) Always and only be positive. This is a tough one but it gets easier. Aim for a compliment to him 3 times a day and make it genuine. The more positivity, the smoother the path ahead will be. Criticizing, punishing, etc., is like sticking a mountain range right in the middle of that path.
2) Humor and hugs. Diffuse his stubbornness with a joke or funny story. And give him tight hugs randomly or when he is having a difficult time.
Also empathize with him, show him your on his side. Allow him to dream and don't knock those dreams. "I know you need your own room, I wish I had an extra room just for you. I hope one day we will be able to have one for you." (Slim chance but he feels good he was heard and validated.)
3) If I need to tell him something like an improvement in an aspect of his behavior, I respect his pride and find him when he's alone in a room, not in front of others. Since he is quick to grasp situations, it doesn't take more than a minute, and brings automatic results.

Now that he's grown up a bit since, I can tell him in front of his siblings and he won't mind much.
He has a way of bringing all the attention in the room to himself (his poor teachers) and we joke that he isn't the centerpiece that sits there for everyone to talk about. We give him attention but BH I have many other children and he cannot make a shabbos table all about himself.

One last thing- do not argue with him. His manipulations will take you to Mars and back and then back again. Just tell him what the rules are that he must follow, and what happens when he does and when he doesnt. Make it worth it for him to follow the rules. And stay there. No explanations or reasons why XYZ happened before ABC became DEF.

Thank you, this was really helpful.

FranticFrummie

Tue, Jun 02 2020, 11:08 am

Parenting Kids with Love and Logic (my favorite! Also the Parenting Teens book.)

Stop Walking on Eggshells. (Google for the free PDF)

Manipulation is a sign of very high intelligence, so never underestimate your child, or how much you think they understand.

When you catch a lie, and then the child confesses, the worst punishment should be no more than a tiny "slap on the wrist". Then praise your child for honesty. You should always be the safe person to talk to.

Manipulative children are often looking for security, more than they are the thing that they are trying to get. When DD would push me, I'd slam down a boundary and a red line, and suddenly she'd be the calmest and sweetest girl you could imagine - until she decided to try something new. She needed to know that I was solid and in charge at all times, or else she would act out because of nervousness.

Children can smell weakness the way sharks smell blood in the water. With this kind of child you must be firm and 100% consistent. If you and DH are not on the same page at all times, you will not succeed, and it could even damage your marriage in the long run. If you feel like this is part of the problem, get all of you to family therapy ASAP. Medicine can only do so much if there is a confusing dynamic in the home.

Been there, done that! My DD was never malicious, but she was very sneaky, and quite proud of the wool she could pull over my eyes. It took me a long time to catch on. Good for you for being on top of things!

amother

Tue, Jun 02 2020, 12:18 pm

FranticFrummie wrote:

Manipulation is a sign of very high intelligence, so never underestimate your child, or how much you think they understand.

This is the root of the problem, we think.

DC wasn't like this until preschool, when it became clear that the teachers did not know how much he understood. He was concrete operational around 2-3 and at 8 was already starting formal operational. I'm trying to stress metacognition and hoping that it will lead to a change in behavior, but that hasn't happened yet.

Meanwhile everyone around us doesn't understand this and seems to think that giving in and undermining our authority when we say no is okay.

FranticFrummie

Tue, Jun 02 2020, 12:28 pm

It's true that you can't expect adult motivation and thinking. Most children don't think very far ahead in advance. Maybe a few days or so at the most. Adults can play the "long con" for as long as needed to get results. Short term thinking is your main advantage right now, as you can use that to see what your child might be plotting.

The smartest kids can take a grain of truth, and spin a story around it that is so convincing that it is stunning in it's believability and intricacy. For these kids, it isn't even so much about getting you to give them a cookie before dinner, it's about playing the game. It's a fun mental exercise, and the payoff is secondary. It's also an emotional rush. There is a big release of endorphins when you think you have power or control over an adult. (Immature adults are the same way, they never got past a childish outlook on life.)

I had to explain to DD that she does not like it when her friends trick her and tell her things that are not true. Theory of mind takes a long time to develop sometimes. If you put it in those terms, it's easier to absorb the message. Then you can explain that you don't like it when people trick you, because it makes you sad, and not want to trust them.

lilies

Tue, Jun 02 2020, 12:31 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

This is the root of the problem, we think.

Snip

Meanwhile everyone around us doesn't understand this and seems to think that giving in and undermining our authority when we say no is okay.

People that haven't experienced this themselves might never understand this.

Another point regarding being intelligent; if you look at it from an attachment theory perspective, the kid will need to hone this skill in order to thrive within their limitations.
It's more a survival technique than anything else.

lilies

Tue, Jun 02 2020, 12:38 pm

FranticFrummie wrote:

Only because they feel they need the power.
They need to be helped to reach a place of feeling safe and happy within their life so that need falls away.
That is why you putting down a strong boundary right away, being consistent and calm, helps them feel safe.

If a child is still in that place emotionally, and you explain how people feel when they are being tricked...it becomes a skill to use to their benefit.
They need to be able to be empathetic to others in order for that to actually change their way of relating to people.
Not every child is developed enough and will take all explanations to be used in the wrong way.

Just food for thought for op.

lilies

Tue, Jun 02 2020, 1:04 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Curious, what do you mean?

Example;
If a baby is left crying each night to 'teach him to fall asleep' , the baby's needs aren't being met. The conclusion is that Mother isn't available emotionally/physically, isn't attuned to his needs. Baby learns to stop crying as Mother will not come.
This baby has just learnt that his mother cannot be relied upon for his needs.
Of course, all of this varies by how much, how often, how intense the needs are.

This baby has also not learnt how to regulate, has not received appropriate mirroring from his mother to develop certain parts of the brain.

There's so much I'm skipping, simplifying and not doing justice to, it's unbelievable!

Anyway, assuming this kid grew up with the belief of needing to rely on themselves as much as possible, and this kid is intelligent. They learn that they can manipulate/lie in order to get their needs met. It becomes a matter of survival as they sometimes are not capable of handling the situation otherwise.
A healthily attached child has developed their sense of self/self-worth by age 5 and can handle 'minor stress'.
A poorly attached child at age 8 does not know how to respond or help themselves in many situations, as there is no sense of self, and will learn to avoid it.

I feel like I'm not expressing it all clearly, feel free to PM me with more questions.

FranticFrummie

Tue, Jun 02 2020, 1:19 pm

I understand Lilies' point of view, but not all manipulation comes from a lack of attachment or bonding, needing security, etc. It most certainly can come from that, but not always. You can't always "blame the mother". A mom can do everything right, and still have a manipulative child.

In DD's case, I believe it was partly from boredom, because she was an only child, and there was only one other girl in the neighborhood who was close to her age to play with. For her, "being tricky" was a game that was entertaining. When she got older she even told me as much. It was part of having a very vivid imagination.

She's one of those kids who needs input pretty much 24/7, or else she feels very uncomfortable. If life isn't interesting enough, she would MAKE it interesting. I did attachment parenting from the beginning and worked from home, so she was never without my attention. She didn't even get a babysitter until she was 5, and then maybe 2 or 3 times after that (in her entire life).

She was manipulative with her teachers, too. She could be 5 minutes late to class, and have the teachers believe anything. It was truly impressive. When asked to write a short story about her family, a friend, or summer vacation she would let her imagination run wild. All of her teachers said that "she has a bright future in young adult fiction". LOL

Now that she's older, she's realized that losing people's trust is not worth the thrill of getting one over on people. She's still a really good writer, though. She's figured out how to channel her intelligence and imagination into positive things.

lilies

Tue, Jun 02 2020, 1:50 pm

FranticFrummie wrote:

I am not blaming the mother at all.
A mom can do everything right within her power and still have the same result. Not everything is in Mom's control.
The child might still suffer from attachment disorder.
A mother physically unwell, a mother being busy with another child, a mother on bed rest. A simply busy mother, mother that's unaware, bla bla.

It's a fact of life. There is no perfection in this world. We are not malachim.
It doesn't change the theory and concepts that have been studied and the children that were helped because of the understanding.

Of course, nothing is simple. A child can start off with attachment disorder, and then have to deal with the trauma of being bullied and other natural consequences the child may suffer due to this. Even after the relationship with the mother as been repaired. The world does not wait, schools often add stress, and more.

ETA; If the mother has suffered trauma and is suffering from PTSD.

Last edited by lilies on Tue, Jun 02 2020, 2:09 pm; edited 1 time in total

cbsp

Tue, Jun 02 2020, 2:01 pm

Slightly different perspective here:

Being manipulative can be a facet of ASD. It's actually a question on the parent interview portion of the ADOS.

If a child views people around him as objects, then the way to interact or get them to do something is to manipulate. And they don't necessarily grasp that there's a difference between manipulating blocks (which is fine and encouraged) and manipulating people. It's just using all the tools in his toolbox to get the job done, whatever the job is (whether building a tower or getting the toy his little brother won). There's no moral judgement, it just is what it is.

amother

Rose

Tue, Jun 02 2020, 2:27 pm

amother [ Burgundy ] wrote:

Children are not manipulative.
Were a professional or anyone to use that term in regard to child I would look elsewhere for advice and help.
hugs and hatzlocha

Agree.
Better term to use would be "attention seeking" perhaps.
That said, I have worked with manipulative children. But they were diagnosed as ED (Emotionally Disturbed) and were working with psychiatrists etc. Too young to be officially diagnosed with a specific mental illness at the time. A child with impulsivity or ADHD does not fit into that profile at all. I would press the therapist for what she means exactly, or get a new one....

amother

Magenta

Tue, Jun 02 2020, 2:31 pm

This is true about attachment parenting but not for everyone. My son was breastfed for over a year, coslept with him till 5 years old, and didn't start preschool till almost 3 years old.
(He crawled at 3 mo old, walked at 10 mo old, was speaking sentences by 15 mo old, and counting to 20 by 18 mo old.) He was always advanced and ready for more. But strong minded and creative like anything.
He is a gift, with exceptional talents which need to be channeled towards positive things. You can't fight a child's nature but you can work with it and guide him in the right direction.
Overnight camp is the best place for independent-minded kids because it's a structured setting but looser than a parent's watchful eye. Camp makes the kids follow the rules, and since the rewards (trips and fun activities) are immediate, there is more cooperation.

Kids like this need more instant rewards because their thrill of powergrabbing is very rewarding and immediate. I pushed him through 5-7th grades with a ton of motivational rewards for good behavior. He is finishing 8th and did not need that this year although I did create other reward systems for all of my kids together.

Like franticfrummie said, they can smell weakness like a shark smells blood in water. A moment of indecision or doubt they pick up on and use it to their advantage.

My son also just needs exciting things to look forward to, so once a week motivational rewards or knowing he's earning extra canteen money for overnight camp or whatever it is, really helps him along.

He has grown a lot BH. Ages 9-12 were really very difficult and his 13 yr old hormones can make me laugh and cry at the same time, but he is so much more pleasant and easier now.

Try to say yes as much as possible. But also draw the red lines of unacceptable when you have to. He's been begging for months for an airsoft gun- that's a no I will never change. But yes, he can go to sleep late as long as he's up on time the next day. Yes he can take special late night snacks and I'll overlook a little extra mess. Etc etc.