Anyone lives in/familiar with Alon Shvut?

amother

Wed, Jun 10 2020, 10:04 am

amother [ Natural ] wrote:

.

Anyway, op, I HIGHLY recommend moving to the neighborhood where your kids will be attending school. It is not fun at all for a kid to go to a different town for school. In Israel, so much of the social life is local. I've seen my kids' classmates - in each class there are 2 or 3 kids who come from far away. They can't hang out with their friends after school, they can't meet up spontaneously, they can't schmooze on Shabbat. They aren't an integral part of the class dynamics. Their parents need to drive them long distances every time there is a school function or a classmate has a birthday party, or classmates are getting together to study for a test.
I understand sometimes there is no choice, and people make the best out of it. But you DO have a choice, you are looking to move now! Why would you put your kids at such a disadvantage?

And as an aside, why do you want to send them to schools where you don't fit in with the surrounding culture anyway?

Thank you. I really thought about this a lot over the past few days. And all I can come up with is that there is no one surrounding culture I AM comfortable with. We don't fit perfectly into any one category. The closest fit is probably straight Chabad but even that is not a perfect match, or maybe I just don't like being surrounded by only Chabad people and just want the atmosphere of diversity and acceptance...

In that sense, where we are now, Kochav Yaakov, is completely perfect. There are all types living happily together. And I love it. I don't think there is any place like this in the gush... If there was, that's where we'd go!

amother

Papaya

Wed, Jun 10 2020, 10:08 am

banana123 wrote:

I think you will find that it is very different here. Many are the arguments I have had with Israeli Chabadnikim who insist that Chabad is chareidi, bringing proof that the Rebbe said girls should emulate Bais Yaakov in terms of tznius.

The levush may look alike but Chabad is definitely not chareidi. However.....the effects of being raised far from the Rebbe, with parents who were raised far from the Rebbe, has made itself clear, and Chabad in Israel tends to be more extremist and also more charedi-identifying than Chabad abroad. Letov ulemutav, as they say. Smile

How is chabad not charedi? Chabad are more makpid on many things even more than your average charedi person (pictures of non-kosher animals for kids, kashrut etc)

I'm Israeli chabad and I think it's extremely positive that chabad in Israel 'emulate BY tznius'. Whatever that's supposed to mean. Basically, women and girls should be dressed appropriately. I was in Crown Heights for the first time ever a few years ago and was horrified. In Israel there are still struggles with wigs which are too long, short skirts, tight clothing etc but overall I've found the situation to be better in EY.

amother

Wed, Jun 10 2020, 10:11 am

Elfrida wrote:

It's not discrimination against Chabad. Its discrimination against anyone who doesn't fit the homogenous character of the yishuv. One can agree or disagree with that, but I wanted to clarify that it wasn't against any specific group.

I do agree the it is a lot better for children to be able to live near the school and be fully a part of it, rather than having to straddle two social settings and never being a full part of either of them.

Thank you. And I get point a completely.

And re point b... I guess I have no "defense." Except that maybe I grew up driving distance from the school I went to, and though it may have been hard on my parents sometimes needing to drive, I really don't remember suffering...

I remember hearing kids talk about where they had played on Shabbos or what they'd done together and maybe feeling vaguely sad... But I also kind of enjoyed the privacy and space where we lived. I had lots of friends over for Shabbos sleepovers, or slept over at their houses. When I was middle school a new girl moved from out-of-town into our neighborhood. And yes I enjoyed it. But I don't think I NEEDED It.

If we pursue the Tzur Hadassah option at least, it seems that there is lots of public transportation from there to Beitar that would enable my older kids in a few years to start going to friends on their own.

amother

Wed, Jun 10 2020, 10:21 am

banana123 wrote:

By the way, a non-meshichist in the US is someone who does not say yechi, right? So here, a non-meshichist is someone who doesn't wear a yechi yarmulka and says yechi only quietly. Call him a meshichist and he will be insulted and appalled, that's not how he identifies. Whereas the meshichistim here border on Tzfatim to the American mind. Whatever...it is what it is.

It's not the area where you live but maybe Chabad of Arad (or maybe Be'er Sheva) would be good to look into. Maybe Itamar?

Thanks. This is really valuable food for thought. Of course I've heard what the Rebbe said about Chabad girls emulating Bais Yaakov in terms of tznius... When I was in America that never translated into me or anyone I know thinking that therefore we ARE the same as the Bais Yaakov crowd in terms of culture and ways of thought. Maybe I just didn't hang out in crowds of people who took that super seriously. I grew up with very careful covering of elbows/collarbones/knees, wearing knee socks so my lower leg never showed, etc. But style-wise we would never have passed for Bais Yaakov. In fact in my early twenties I remember meeting Bais Yaakov peers for the first time, in a Bais Yaakov setting, who immediately pegged me as Chabad based on my way of dress alone (covering everything but more in accordance with outside trends, I guess?).

What you say about the difference between American and Israeli Chabad being caused by being raised far from the Rebbe is very interesting. I have heard someone attribute it to extra magnetic fields here in Israel... Your explanation makes more sense!

It's possible that Arad, Beer Sheva, or Itamar would make more sense for us community-wise (though my husband has a friend in Arad who wants to move now too... maybe to the area of Itamar!)... But we're pretty committed to the Jerusalem area.

amother

Wed, Jun 10 2020, 10:24 am

ally wrote:

There is a Facebook group called Chabad English Speakers in Israel that would be a good resource for you.
Chabad in Israel is different culturally to US Chabad and does lean more chareidi. This is particularly true in the mainstream schools.

Thank you. I'm on that group and know some of the people. It's possible we would fit in with them... or not... I did think about the fact that maybe we're just "American Chabad" (by which maybe I mean less chareidi than Israeli Chabad as you say) and so maybe we'd do better off in the places they recommend.

But we're not moving to Beer Sheva, and really want to stay in the Jerusalem area (just a question of where exactly)... Haven't thought to post my question openly there. I guess I'm just not ready to be that open with my "real" identity so I've only read other people's questions and answers.

amother

Wed, Jun 10 2020, 10:35 am

amother [ Navy ] wrote:

The group is a good resource but it is very narrow-minded. They don't mind giving the boot to anyone who sees Chabad as different than they see it, or who say things they don't agree with. So it's kind of like an echo chamber, except that they can answer location questions.

Be aware that the group's founders are also among the founders of a new wannabe town, Neve Chabad, and the group serves as somewhat of a platform for it (not sure to what extent anymore, but that's how it was when I left).

There is a Hebrew group, חבדניקיות מפטפטות, which may also be a good resource.

Thank you!! Will check out the Hebrew group.

I did get the sense from the Neve Chabad promoters that they may have a "my way or the highway approach" about their new town (lots of ground rules and conformism) which turned me off a bit, even though I can appreciate that that may be necessary when trying to build a town from scratch, and even though in practice we may already be in conformance with most of what they wanted... But I've also heard that it's not happening in the end and they are very happily staying put in Beer Sheva. All theoretical for us...

amother

Wed, Jun 10 2020, 10:42 am

amother [ Natural ] wrote:

That's the plus of living in a larger yeshuv or a city. No one can turn you away.
And most important, the population is more diverse, so if you change down the road, or if your kids are non-conformists, you don't feel like the odd man out.
Of course some yeshuvim are laxer with their selection committee and will allow in a diverse group. But some are not, and I would think ten times before living in a place that would not let my best friend or my brother to live there. Or would not allow my child to live there (as an adult) if he became secular/Chabad/Breslov/etc.

Thank you. I would have to say I agree with you... Thank you for pointing out the possible eventualities down the line, or the thought of visiting friends/relatives who might be different types.

amother

Wed, Jun 10 2020, 11:07 am

amother [ Papaya ] wrote:

If I think of Chareidi as "following Halacha very carefully" then yes, my sense of my own Chabad identity is that we are chareidi.

But I think of Chareidi as also applying to things like... not allowing restaurants with sit-down seating. Or discouraging many outdoor sports or types of exercise, or variety of experiences in general. And general conformism or outside enforcement of rules. And this is all very distant from my personal values and doesn't seem like a contradiction to my identifying as Chabad at all.

As far not allowing pictures of non-kosher animals for kids--is this Halacha at all? Personally I do not get my kids non-kosher stuffed animals or clothing/stuff with cute non-kosher animals... But for me it is because the Rebbe said, and the reasons that he said it, which AFAIK are not Halachic.

As far as the tznius in CH... I have many thoughts on that but probably this is not the place to go into it. Just wrote and deleted a bunch. But I will say that I have seen many beautifully modest women among the Torani crowd (who may not cover their lower legs at all, and almost certainly never wear a wig) and while I am not them, it seems to me that they have something right--and maybe I'm idealizing a bit, but they seem to be fixated on neither high fashion nor uncomfortable rules. And maybe this seeming see-saw in Chabad between either going hyper-trendy or hyper rule-focused (Chareidi style) is what makes me just want to be surrounded by other types altogether.

banana123

Thu, Jun 11 2020, 1:34 am

amother [ Papaya ] wrote:

Not having pictures of non-kosher animals is not a halachic issue, it's a hora'a from the Rebbe. Charedim aren't "makpid" about it, because it's not a minhag or a halacha, it's something that we do as chassidim because our Rebbe said it was important.

To emulate BY tznius is a positive thing, but just because you emulate one aspect of someone, doesn't make you INTO that someone. For instance if you emulate Rav S"Z Auerbach's sterling middot, that won't turn you into him. And if you strive to emulate Rav Moshe Feinstein's Torah knowledge, you STILL won't be Rav Moshe Feinstein. So emulating BY tznius is something to strive for, certainly, but that doesn't mean you ARE BY, or that you ARE charedi. It means that in this aspect, you're emulating them. (Not going to get into CH tznius here, let's just say that we probably agree.)

The reason I say Chabad isn't charedi is because despite the men's levush and the kashrut requirements, we really aren't the same.
The Rebbe encouraged women to nurse - chareidim have zero issue giving formula.
The Rebbe pushed dina d'malchuta dina - many chareidim believe this applies "except for" whatever.
IDF - Chabad bochurim can join without fearing they'll be excommunicated, and many join after they have kids with no problem - chareidim, not so.
Kollel - The Rebbe said anyone wanting to learn in kollel more than 3 years should ask a rav/ mashpia. Chareidim - lechatchila learn 10 years in kollel.
College/ higher education - the Rebbe was very adamant that as a hora'ah klalit you don't go before marriage and if you do go it should be al taharat hakodesh as far as possible, and the rules are the same for men and women; chareidim even after you are married it is still frowned upon, al taharat hakodesh barely makes it by, even that is not something truly accepted, and things are different for men than for women.
Outside influences - The Rebbe said everyone is a shliach, "if you know alef, teach alef" and when you are busy spreading light you will not be influenced by darkness. Chareidim like to set up ghettos to protect themselves from the outside world, their inyan is not to spread light to protect themselves from darkness (and if they spread light, that's good too, but it's not the ikar).
Internet - Chabad's shita is that everything can be used for good, Chabad bought up some of the first internet domains to use them for Torah. Chareidim - only in recent years has internet become not something to kill a shidduch or throw a child out of school for, and even that - only in some areas.
Shleimut ha'aretz - The Rebbe was very adamant that you DO NOT GIVE UP LAND. Chareidim - as long as you get money for your yeshivas and there's no "shmad" then it's all good.
Kid goes off the derech - Chabad - keep loving him, gam shechata yisrael hu. Chareidim - he might influence the other kids and their chances of shidduchim, we can't have him around anymore.

I could go on and on and on but the bottom line is that no, Chabad is not chareidi. We look the same, when it comes to our dedication to Torah and halacha we are the same, but when it comes to pretty much everything else, we are worlds apart and much closer to Religious Zionists than to chareidim.

banana123

Thu, Jun 11 2020, 1:56 am

amother [ Papaya ] wrote:

It's a horaa from the rebbe, just like any other, what I don't appreciate is saying that "oh it's not halacha so you don't have to do it' - this is not the chabad approach.

I find your definition of charedi in the previous post very narrow. 'Charedi' doesn't equate to 'litvakim' - there's quite a spectrum and not as narrow as you described.

That's what she was saying - she does it because the Rebbe said, so when you said that we're "more makpid" on this than chareidim, that's not really a logical or relevant statement. It's not that we're "more makpid" it's that we follow the Rebbe's horaot. It has nothing to do with who is more makpid or 'more frum."

IDF - what I wrote applies to all chareidm.
Kollel - some chassidishe guys work, it's more common than for litvakers, but many don't, at least here in Israel.
College/higher education - AFAIK what I wrote applies to all chareidim. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Outside influences - ditto, applies to all chareidim. (Unless you are Breslov, I didn't have them in mind when I wrote this list.)
Internet, shleimut ha'aretz - if chassidim are different please enlighten me, because that's not what I've seen.
Kid going OTD of course some families keep the kid anyways but AFAIK that is in all groups, and in all chareidi groups it's pas nisht to keep the kid.
Again this probably is different in chu"l, I'm referring to Israelis here. In chu"l much of what I wrote for chareidim is different.

Yes I know that there have always been chareidim (chassidim and litvakers) who have TVs in the master bedroom closet and internet....yeah. But it's still taboo, the shita isn't that it's okay.

amother

Papaya

Thu, Jun 11 2020, 2:51 am

banana123 wrote:

Most of my friends are from Bnei Brak, all are Israeli (not chutznikim, that's a totally different ballgame) all kinds of charedim although most are litvak, and *all* work (some in kodesh, others in regular business). Charedim are increasingly entering higher ed, even Bar Ilan set up a 'charedi campus' although university isn't an ideal for chabad either tbh (and yes the Rebbe was in uni but made his position on secular uni studies very clear throughout the years). Many haredi friends have internet, albeit very filtered (etrog, rimon etc), one Litvak rav has a smartphone with whatsapp and the works. And he learned in Ponavitch and has big connections with HaRav Nissim Karelitz. I can't imagine anyone disowning a kid because they've gone OTD (BH it didn't happen anyone, but I do know they have some extended family who have and are still invited to simchot and are very much involved).

banana123

Thu, Jun 11 2020, 3:20 am

amother [ Papaya ] wrote:

You're right, I forgot klei kodesh. And yes there are always some in other businesses but traditionally they have been outliers and it is only bshaas hadchak, sug bet or gimmel type thing. But again, not all people work, it is still bediavad (which is not logical because halachically it is lechatchila, and also remember that lechatchila, Chabad goes to work after 6 months or a year of marriage.

It is true that in the past few years there are more chareidim using gov't chareidi programs and entering the business world. It has been a very long and slow process and it is still not considered a lechatchila option. And Chabad has never had an issue with entering the business world or doing a non-college course so that you can have a parnasa.

Like I said, the Rebbe said if you have to go do college/ university do it after you get married (or in an al taharat hakodesh place, like BR). And I also noted that in Chabad, it is the same for women and men, there isn't the women learn the tumah so the men can stay in tahara mindset.

Chabad has never had an issue with smartphones or whatsapp AFAIK, we treat them like we treat the internet.

The chareidi attitude toward the internet is changing, but it still depends on the exact community and location as to how much it is accepted. Like I said in my previous post.

Okay, so BH you can't imagine it, but let's just say it happens more than you'd like to think.

Whatever....my post isn't what chareidim do or don't do, but the fact that Chabad is inherently different and coming from an inherently different place than the chareidi community. Yes, they are slowly "catching up" and closing the gaps but that doesn't mean that we are chareidi, it means they're emulating us!

The core of how Chabad sees things, what influences our reaction to any given issue, is different than the core of how chareidim see things and how they react to any given issue. That's my point.

We adhere to Torah and halacha the same way they do but we don't see the world the same way they do.